Creating an Instant Bonsai

[A Random User]

I felt that this subject might be worthy of a discussion, seeing some of the recent discussion regarding the subject.

One of the things I am noticing is that there seems to be mixed feelings over the subject, as well as possibly different views towards what it entails to make one. And would love to start to get a serious discussion going and get others input on the subject.

I will start off and state my views regarding it, and if you would love to chime in I would love to hear what you have to say! Thanks in advance!

So, for me the whole concept of an instant bonsai, does not really exist. It is my view on the subject that one is just giving a piece of material it's first styling and whether the material is an amazing piece of stock or a big box store special, it does not matter. Regardless of the price, or quality of the material, I approach both as a Bonsai artist in the same way. How can I make the best of the material before me. How can I make the best tree.

Before I go further though, I would like to address the issue of growing out a tree. Often one will buy a piece of material with the intention of enlarging the trunk size, working the nebari, regrowing all new branches where they want etc... I do this all the time. And I might put some wire around some of the branches, pull a couple down with Guy wires to help position the branches where I want them as they grow.

However, it is my view and perhaps this is where I might differ with some one else's, that a tree in this state is still just stock and what I am doing is not for the most part styling a tree. That what I am doing is still in the beginning stages of creating a pre-bonsai.

My reasoning behind this would be the following...

Let me start with that often bonsai nurseries both here in the states and in places abroad will spend years working stock defining it, growing it out, cutting it back to a line to promote new branches on the trunk etc. Preparing it for their customers to purchase and begin it's transformation into a bonsai. Even still the customer might consider to continue this process after the purchase, further getting it ready to begin work on the tree.

Usually a tree in this state, will be in a typical nursery soil, by this I mean dirt, or even still in the ground. The reasoning behind this is that at this state one is still trying to put on faster growth to help increase the size of the material, or help transition it from the ground. This is also true obviously with alot of collected material, but not all... In some instances where folks are collecting material, the tree itself is already there, but because of the location it was growing in or environment, when the tree was removed it was lacking in roots as well as possibly foliage, so instead to begin this development, the tree has been potted in more of a bonsai soil.

Bonsai soil, why do we pot it in it?
Once one has grown out a tree, and has achieved what they were hoping to achieve in the pre-bonsai state. It is now time to begin to define the tree. Bonsai soil helps us slow down the trees growth. Which is what we want when we begin to transform pre-bonsai into bonsai.

At this point, we are purposely trying not to grow large roots that help hold and add structure to support the tree, because we don't need them. We wire the material into the pot, which solves this problem. Instead we are looking for the fine feeder roots, which draw in and feed the tree. The more fine feeder roots one has, the more the tree is able to produce more finer branches, and more foliage. They go hand in hand, and this is what we want in bonsai. We want large amounts of branches to be able to work with as well as foliage.

Now, by slowing the growth of the tree down with our soil, not only do we produce these roots, which produce the branches and foliage, but we reduce the size of the spacing between them.which allows for them to be tighter in towards the trunk of the tree. Which is what we want as well. Tight spacing between nodes.

Now for alot of folks here, I know they already get all this... just throwing it in for those who are newer! Now, the reason I am going into all of this is to define what is considered the most common process in how one creates a bonsai tree out of a piece of stock.

However, often there going to be exceptions to this type of procedure. As I mentioned before, perhaps one has a collected tree, and does not need to grow it out, the size is already there. Perhaps one is wanting to create a shohin or mame, and the size is already there. Perhaps one wants to wire some of the branches as they grow to position them, or add movement. Perhaps one already has lower branches the size they want and wants to start the next process of beginning to define smaller branches. Perhaps one is concerned about what size pot they would want to get the tree in and would purposely want to grow it in a smaller pot, so they can restrict the space with which the roots are allowed to grow in.
And the list can go on and on... and what one often finds is that you might be overlapping the two... growing out and refining at the same time. Often you will see folks doing a first style on a tree wiring and bending large branches, finer ones, establishing pads, etc. all while the tree is still in nursery soil.

On the flip side, one might go to see a demonstration at a convention or show, where the individual cuts off every branch, hollows a trunk, maybe puts up a leader and this is considered styling a tree. I bring this up not trying to insult the process... for I personally think it is a very valuable process, for what the demonstration is showing one is how to find and established a trunk line within the tree. With this said, I personally would not consider this process styling a tree... I would instead refer to this process as a continuation of establishing a pre-bonsai. One still would need to grow the tree out, allow for branches to return and trim to a line to help establish more branches within the trunks line.

So, it is my view that creating an instant bonsai, is none of this really. Because it is my view that creating an instant bonsai is styling a tree... One cannot possibly style a tree if the material is not ready to be styled.

Alot of the instant bonsai discussion as of lately has been centered around the box store competition that was recently held. As to not add further insult I will go into my personal thought process behind the selection of the tree and the type if material that I chose and the styling of it.

Since this was a competition regarding the styling of a tree. I knew that I would have to look for a piece of material that did not need to be grown out. That was instead ready to be styled. This meant that the trunk needed to be the size that I needed. The roots that I ended up with were a bonus, seeing that I did not know they were there until I dug down. With that said, I was hesitant towards using them, seeing that for alot of folks, exposed roots are something that is not preferred.

I needed to find material where there was sufficient branching, but with not alot of heavy branching. Seeing that not only are heavy branches hard to bend, but often on young material will have very little branching and foliage, not to mention that the spacing between nodes will be greater, meaning less tight and more space in between. Which would not be ideal for the size tree that was determined by the size of the trunk. Lastly, I needed to find a tree with alot of usable foliage in tight to the trunk. Here again determined by the size of the trunk. In essence, a piece of material that was ready to be styled.

So, because of this, as well as the parameters set forth by the competition, that the tree needed to be purchased from a big box store. I knew that clearly no one has spent years there define material to make a bonsai with... That what I would need to look for would be something I could make a shohin or mame with, seeing that this would be my best chance at finding material that was ready for its first styling.

This for me is what bonsai is. Finding the right material to create a tree from. Whether it cost $9 dollars, a thousand or one collects from nature. Often, one will see the potential in a piece of material and will see a vision for the material that does not support what the material currently has, and will want to grow it out. Often one will go ahead and style a tree, knowing that a portion might need to be still be grown out. This is all just part of creating a bonsai.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

My opinion. Did not read the text completely. Instant bonsai does not exist. With some species you can create a good overall image IF the stock is prepared for the work. That often takes several years. You can however make something look like a "bonsai". The more you know bonsai, and the more you look at the details, you should know where the time and the techniques will bring your material. For me it is a bonsai from the moment the branches are on there place, foliage have filled in and everything (pot, trunk, branches, foliage) seems to be in harmony and get an "aged" look.

 

[whfarro]

To me there is no "instant" Bonsai, although the initial steps from raw stock to early styling may be accelerated for various reasons you mention. In the same light, I feel there is conversely no such thing as "finished" Bonsai, as even the best most notable and award winning trees continue to live, grow and evolve.

I read somewhere in this forum once that the only "finished" trees were dead and set to be firewood.

 

[michaelj]

When people say there's no such thing as "instant bonsai", it sounds to me like what they are really saying is that something isn't even bonsai unless it is outstanding or extraordinary. I don't think that young bonsai, developing bonsai, mediocre bonsai or even ugly bonsai shouldn't be considered bonsai, any more than I think that an ugly painting is something other than a painting.

 

[M. Frary]

These are 2 that I bought as nursery stock last year. One is a procumbens nana the other a little shimpaku. Both done on consecutive days last fall. Roots,wire,pruning and into bonsai pots. All at one time. This picture is from this spring after a little snow.
I purposely get a couple trees a year to do this with. They are in no way finished. Like Stacy said they just had a first styling. And for me it's fun and challenging to go to different nurseries looking at every juniper they have and trying to find something that is as close to a pre bonsai there is.

 

[Vin]

It seems many forum members are under the impression that the Box Store Challenges were meant to create “Instant Bonsai.” I’ve read it in many threads and it seems to be a developing tone and I’m not sure why. I’d like everyone to know that nothing could be further from the truth. Not one time in any of the rules, guidelines or comments made by me were the words “Instant Bonsai” used and if anyone feels the objective of the challenges were to create such a thing then I sincerely apologize.

My intent from the very beginning was simply to get folks working on something to further develop their skills and get forum members working together, nothing more nothing less. The whole process of selecting, styling and photographing were all merely training exercises. Instant bonsai; sorry, that just ain’t going happen.

 

[sorce]

And for me it's fun and challenging to go to different nurseries looking at every juniper they have and trying to find something that is as close to a pre bonsai there is.

Yes.!

Sorce

 

[Anthony]

As my brother-in-law does it - draw a design, then get a seed or cutting, and grow it into the design.
Of course he can do this because he first grows the tree type for several years, and then goes to the seed or cutting.
He says, as it is closer to a blank canvas to painting, that it is also much more satisfying.

I have noticed that he gets considerable joy from growing a pencil thick effort, with all of the branches in place, and letting the trunk thicken naturally.
The cuts are much finer and heal well, as an example the Sageretia t.
Good Day
Anthony

Chance seed or cuttings or deliberatly planted cuttings/seeds.
Sagreetia t.

 

[A Random User]

When people say there's no such thing as "instant bonsai", it sounds to me like what they are really saying is that something isn't even bonsai unless it is outstanding or extraordinary. I don't think that young bonsai, developing bonsai, mediocre bonsai or even ugly bonsai shouldn't be considered bonsai, any more than I think that an ugly painting is something other than a painting.

I don't understand? Can you please clarify ?
The reason being is that I don't believe that there is such a thing as an Instant Bonsai, yet I believe there are all kinds of differing degrees of quality material, as well as differing degrees of quality in bonsai trees... I think that young bonsai, developing bonsai, mediocre bonsai or even ugly bonsai should be considered Bonsai. However, if it is an ugly piece of art, it still is an ugly piece of art... And I don't think it would be the intention of someone whose creating art to deliberately want to create ugly art. Usually, ugly art is the sign of a lack of experience at doing the art. However, everyone has to start off at the beginning. The first trees of course are not going to perhaps look so nice, but as one practices and continues to do them, they will find that they gradually get better and better.

 

[A Random User]

These are 2 that I bought as nursery stock last year. One is a procumbens nana the other a little shimpaku. Both done on consecutive days last fall. Roots,wire,pruning and into bonsai pots. All at one time. This picture is from this spring after a little snow.
I purposely get a couple trees a year to do this with. They are in no way finished. Like Stacy said they just had a first styling. And for me it's fun and challenging to go to different nurseries looking at every juniper they have and trying to find something that is as close to a pre bonsai there is.
View attachment 75359

I think those are going to turn out to be some very nice trees! Do you have any before and after pictures of them? Have you posted any threads about them? If not you should...

 

[A Random User]

It seems many forum members are under the impression that the Box Store Challenges were meant to create “Instant Bonsai.” I’ve read it in many threads and it seems to be a developing tone and I’m not sure why. I’d like everyone to know that nothing could be further from the truth. Not one time in any of the rules, guidelines or comments made by me were the words “Instant Bonsai” used and if anyone feels the objective of the challenges were to create such a thing then I sincerely apologize.

My intent from the very beginning was simply to get folks working on something to further develop their skills and get forum members working together, nothing more nothing less. The whole process of selecting, styling and photographing were all merely training exercises. Instant bonsai; sorry, that just ain’t going happen.

I don't think you have anything to apologize for! You were just putting on an event to do exactly as you said, to get people doing bonsai. Which is what they did, and they got to have their work critiqued by an amazing Bonsai Artist, and were given tips and pointers of where and how they could do better! I mean it seems to me that this would be something that everyone who is a member of this Bonsai Forum would of wanted to do? Kinda sad in my book that we only had 3o plus entries, folks could learn a lot through doing the contest!

 

[A Random User]

As my brother-in-law does it - draw a design, then get a seed or cutting, and grow it into the design.
Of course he can do this because he first grows the tree type for several years, and then goes to the seed or cutting.
He says, as it is closer to a blank canvas to painting, that it is also much more satisfying.

I have noticed that he gets considerable joy from growing a pencil thick effort, with all of the branches in place, and letting the trunk thicken naturally.
The cuts are much finer and heal well, as an example the Sageretia t.
Good Day
Anthony

Chance seed or cuttings or deliberatly planted cuttings/seeds.
Sagreetia t.
View attachment 75367

Curious question? Why does your brother in law not makes shohins and mames?
I mean he can still grow from seed, or do a cutting and see a tree trough to a mostly finished state perhaps in his life time. The trunk on the Sageretia has a nice size to it. It would be my personal opinion though, that he is biting off more than he chew, with trying to establish such a large tree. Now, before one says this is about taking satisfaction in one's work, or that he is in no rush... I would put forth the concept that one could easily spend a lifetime just establishing ramification in a tree. That if one was to shorten the tree, by half, or even a quarter of it's height... and spent the next how ever many years one is alive, just establishing fine branching within the tree's structure... and being in no rush... one could still enjoy the fruits of their labor and have a very nice tree.
This is not to be insulting, for I think that he has done a nice job so far! However, the meat and potatoes of a great bonsai, will always, always, always be in the ramification of a tree. For unless one purchases or inherits a tree with a lot of this done already. This is something that just takes time, and year after year of development. Different strokes for different folks, I guess...

 

[Anthony]

Stacy,

he has been doing Bonsai for just about 35 years. There are many sizes around the backyard, say from 3 feet to 1".
I doubt he even thinks about finishing trees anymore, just the joy of growing designs
You do realise that the sageretia above is maybe 12 inches tall [ I will a measurement in the morning light.]
Not really a large tree.

He actually spent more time studying the prevention of rotting wood in sageretias, as large cuts [ 1/2 " + ] never heal.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[lordy]

Curious question? Why does your brother in law not makes shohins and mames?
I mean he can still grow from seed, or do a cutting and see a tree trough to a mostly finished state perhaps in his life time. The trunk on the Sageretia has a nice size to it. It would be my personal opinion though, that he is biting off more than he chew, with trying to establish such a large tree. Now, before one says this is about taking satisfaction in one's work, or that he is in no rush... I would put forth the concept that one could easily spend a lifetime just establishing ramification in a tree. That if one was to shorten the tree, by half, or even a quarter of it's height... and spent the next how ever many years one is alive, just establishing fine branching within the tree's structure... and being in no rush... one could still enjoy the fruits of their labor and have a very nice tree.
This is not to be insulting, for I think that he has done a nice job so far! However, the meat and potatoes of a great bonsai, will always, always, always be in the ramification of a tree. For unless one purchases or inherits a tree with a lot of this done already. This is something that just takes time, and year after year of development. Different strokes for different folks, I guess...

I am curious how the statement about ramification taking a lifetime is said with such utter " matter of fact" certainty, when you have only been doing bonsai for 10 years (remember the "new talent" thing?).
Also, pretty much every authority on bonsai design and authors of reference books on the same subject seem to think that nebari and trunk are where it's at in bonsai. Sure, ramification is a desirable attribute, the icing on a beautiful cake as it were, but most of the time it is hidden, whereas the nebari anchors the whole picture. In a display, trees without impressive nebari are just "also rans".

 

[wireme]

Bonsai soil, why do we pot it in it?
Once one has grown out a tree, and has achieved what they were hoping to achieve in the pre-bonsai state. It is now time to begin to define the tree. Bonsai soil helps us slow down the trees growth. Which is what we want when we begin to transform pre-bonsai into bonsai.

At this point, we are purposely trying not to grow large roots that help hold and add structure to support the tree, because we don't need them. We wire the material into the pot, which solves this problem. Instead we are looking for the fine feeder roots, which draw in and feed the tree. The more fine feeder roots one has, the more the tree is able to produce more finer branches, and more foliage. They go hand in hand, and this is what we want in bonsai. We want large amounts of branches to be able to work with as well as foliage.

Now, by slowing the growth of the tree down with our soil, not only do we produce these roots, which produce the branches and foliage, but we reduce the size of the spacing between them.which allows for them to be tighter in towards the trunk of the tree. Which is what we want as well. Tight spacing between nodes.

I'm skeptical of this soil bit. I want to get my trees into bonsai soil because I believe it's the easiest medium to keep tree roots healthy in. I thought trees can grow pretty strongly in it if not better than nursery soil. Uh,oh... Soil debating... Sorry, wasn't thinking, good thread, good post.

On subject, I find myself to be a develop a bit a a time along the way kind of guy, takes me years of establishing and growing till I feel a trees ready for a full style generally.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

@wireme, I don't think what Sawgrass says contradicts what you just said. Perhaps it would have been better if he said "control" growth instead of "slow down"?

 

[GrimLore]

Stacey in opening this thread made some very accurate statements. Most important in my opinion is when purchasing AND collecting finding something worthy of becoming "instant" Bonsai is rare and not a realistic approach or thought process. The plant must be beyond pre-stock and that being said one must spend a LOT of money on true stock if they wish to take it home, pot it, and style it having a worthy plant to display at the end of the session. This however also requires one knowing the species prior to purchase AND the fundamentals of Bonsai itself for it to work out. So - there can be an "instant Bonsai" but years of knowledge proceed that process along with a bit of luck...

I do however disagree with the later statement on ramification - there are to many plants worthy of show that require no ramification to make such a broad statement.

Grimmy

 

[A Random User]

I am curious how the statement about ramification taking a lifetime is said with such utter " matter of fact" certainty, when you have only been doing bonsai for 10 years (remember the "new talent" thing?).
Also, pretty much every authority on bonsai design and authors of reference books on the same subject seem to think that nebari and trunk are where it's at in bonsai. Sure, ramification is a desirable attribute, the icing on a beautiful cake as it were, but most of the time it is hidden, whereas the nebari anchors the whole picture. In a display, trees without impressive nebari are just "also rans".

First let me say that you can check your attitude and leave that at the door, I am sorry that you commented on the other thread before actually getting your facts straight and had egg on your face. It seems to me that before one was to try and lecture another on the morals of how they should behave, they should at least try and figure out what was said before they do so. But, then again this is what I would do.... and apparently this is not something that is actually important to you, is it? Yes, I have only been doing bonsai for ten years, no where on any of what I have ever posted have I ever once claimed to be some sort of guru master in bonsai, this is something you have imagined, and want to be the case because you clearly have a beef with me. This was meant to be a positive discussion and rather than just voicing your disagreement with what what I have said, which would be perfectly acceptable seeing that I even asked here with my opening statement, that I wanted to hear what folks had to say, whether they agreed with what I said or not... you chose instead to wine and try to insult, which is uncalled for. I you Wan to discuss things of this matter PM me and we can have at it!

Now, with that said, I will address and actually answer you question the best that I can. I'm not quite sure why I should seeing the way that you chose to deliver it, but un like yourself, I am not going to let bonsai discussion get in the way of BS.

Yes, I do believe that trunk and roots are important and often take a very long time to accomplish... but it is my opinion, through personal observation, that we here in the states are often able to find very old trunks already established through collecting. However a very old trunk established trunk is still not a tree.

Often alot of the old material collected here in Florida, will have most of it's branches removed after collecting and regrow where on wants it, seeing that the material we are working with, allows for one to do this... so in essence we are mainly collecting for the trunk. So, seeing that this is the reasoning for doing so... who then goes and collected a piece of material that still needs grow the trunk out? No, one... on less the material has a distinct feature that makes it unique. One instead passes and moves onto a trunk where this is already established. So, that solves the issue of the trunk.

Often, when collecting yamadori one finds that the type if material one is collecting, may not have nice nebari, and perhaps may never have nice nebari, due to the type of material that it is, no matter how many years are spent developing them. Down here in Florida we collect a lot of very old buttonwoods, not known for their nebari... out west they collect alot of very old junipers and pines, again not really known for their nebari.

Now, I understand that in your neck of the woods people may collect material where it perhaps does have a halfway decent nebari, and with time can be developed in to something more. And that fine... but, our experience, and our material is totally different.

Now, the reasoning behind me discussing the subject in such a way is that from my own personal view, one of the main things that sets us apart here in the states from let's say the Japanese or any other Asian countries doing bonsai, is not that we can't find necessarily nice stock, it is that we haven't had the years of being able to develop the material, as they have.

So, if we have material that has age and an old established trunk... and the material we are working with, does not necessarily provide us with a possible chance of a nice nebari, then what is left?

I know, that here again, I have nly been doing bonsai for 10 years, but 10 years should be sufficient enough time to be able to assess this question and come up with an answer.
Thanks, I think, for replying to my thread!

 

[michaelj]

I don't understand? Can you please clarify ?
The reason being is that I don't believe that there is such a thing as an Instant Bonsai, yet I believe there are all kinds of differing degrees of quality material, as well as differing degrees of quality in bonsai trees... I think that young bonsai, developing bonsai, mediocre bonsai or even ugly bonsai should be considered Bonsai. However, if it is an ugly piece of art, it still is an ugly piece of art... And I don't think it would be the intention of someone whose creating art to deliberately want to create ugly art. Usually, ugly art is the sign of a lack of experience at doing the art. However, everyone has to start off at the beginning. The first trees of course are not going to perhaps look so nice, but as one practices and continues to do them, they will find that they gradually get better and better.

Sure, I can clarify. First of all, I absolutely do think there is such a thing as instant bonsai, even in the strictest sense that (I think) some of you are using that phrase, i.e., instant and excellent bonsai trees. There can be times when one finds, at a nursery, or in a yard, or in the mountain, a tree with a very nice trunk, nebari, apparent age, movement, character, and someone can put that into a nice bonsai pot, prune and wire it, and it looks very pleasing as a bonsai. And that is absolutely instant bonsai. Doesn't mean it can't look better 3 years from now, or 10 years from now, or 30 years from now, but yesterday it was a nursery plant or a landscape plant or a wild plant, and today, it is a bonsai. It takes both luck and skill (although a lot more of one will compensate for less of the other), but it can be done.

But even if it's not that sort of amazing material, what would you call a tree that someone bought, did some initial work on, and put into a bonsai pot, if not bonsai? And if it is bonsai, even if not as refined as what one might expect to be in a show, but it was put together immediately from nursery stock or whatever, how is that not "instant" and why the negative or even condescending connotation behind combining the two words?

 

[A Random User]

Stacey in opening this thread made some very accurate statements. Most important in my opinion is when purchasing AND collecting finding something worthy of becoming "instant" Bonsai is rare and not a realistic approach or thought process. The plant must be beyond pre-stock and that being said one must spend a LOT of money on true stock if they wish to take it home, pot it, and style it having a worthy plant to display at the end of the session. This however also requires one knowing the species prior to purchase AND the fundamentals of Bonsai itself for it to work out. So - there can be an "instant Bonsai" but years of knowledge proceed that process along with a bit of luck...

I do however disagree with the later statement on ramification - there are to many plants worthy of show that require no ramification to make such a broad statement.

Grimmy

I thank you for your reply, I also thank you for being mature enough to discuss this in a civilized way!

What I have said in this thread and some of the responses to replies, is merely the facts that I see on bonsai, which for me have been established through my own personal experiences and observations.
Someone else's observations and experiences may lead them to a different view of the facts. This does not mean, that either are necessarily wrong. Just right, but different.

So, when I post what I did, this is from what I personally see being the case. I asked for others to chime in and express what they saw. And you did that, as well did Lordy, the attitude, could of been left out, but hey, I am glad that you both commented. Cause this is what we should be doing.

The only area where I personally would disagree with what you have said, would be that I personally don't think one always has to spend alot of money on material that has been established in order to create a nice bonsai. This is not to say you are wrong. Just differences of opinions. I also, don't think that i have made such a broad statement. It is my own personal opinion that the branches and ramification, will always hold more value than the nebari, because of the type of material I prefer to work with, as well as I feel that this is where the story telling of the tree is done. Thanks!