Common Myrtle

[Attila Soos]

Where is the rule that manipulation by man is somehow tied to lousy bonsai?

So what I should be shootin for is a bonsai that somehow looks more natural, untouched by man?

More like these below? I see what you mean I have seen many of these in the forests when I walk around

Calling a good bonsai look like totally untouched by man may be a stretch, but they certainly have a number of attributes taken from nature.
The more of these attributes, the more the bonsai look natural. The less of these attributes, the more artificial looking.

The two trees that you show as examples, seem to have mature branch structure. This attribute makes them more natural-looking that a tree that shows juvenile branch structure.

Of course, there is no bonsai that shows 100% of its attributes taken from nature. That's why you won't see a tree in nature that looks exactly like your bonsai example. Or more exactly, that's why we don't copy nature down to the last twig. But the more of these natural attributes, the better the bonsai. Or, at least, that's what some of us think.

 

[R_F]

Where is the rule that manipulation by man is somehow tied to lousy bonsai?

So what I should be shootin for is a bonsai that somehow looks more natural, untouched by man?

More like these below? I see what you mean I have seen many of these in the forests when I walk around

Calm down Al....you're trying to make this into a "Black and White" issue and it's more of a grey issue.

I'm talking about balance between "manipulated by man" and "Natural". That really is what bonsai is. The balance between the two extremes. Not choosing one extreme or the other. Some lean more to one extreme or the other but there remains a balance if they want it to be seen as a tree.

I'm not attacking your choices with this tree. Did you miss the part where I mentioned that I think you're on the right track? Or did all you see was the bruise to your ego that my fair and balanced criticism apparently caused?

Wasn't it you on BT that preached how people needed to accept honest criticism without being so defensive? Time to buck up and swallow your own advice.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Wasn't it you on BT that preached how people needed to accept honest criticism without being so defensive? Time to buck up and swallow your own advice.

Ouch! I felt that one...

 

[Attila Soos]

Remember, Al, it's nothing personal. We are just talking about trees here. Just like other people talking about the weather. Light conversation in polite society.
When somebody in the elevator tells me "it looks like rain today, doesn't it", I am not going to punch him in the face.

 

[Smoke]

Calm down Al....you're trying to make this into a "Black and White" issue and it's more of a grey issue.

I'm talking about balance between "manipulated by man" and "Natural". That really is what bonsai is. The balance between the two extremes. Not choosing one extreme or the other. Some lean more to one extreme or the other but there remains a balance if they want it to be seen as a tree.

I'm not attacking your choices with this tree. Did you miss the part where I mentioned that I think you're on the right track? Or did all you see was the bruise to your ego that my fair and balanced criticism apparently caused?

Wasn't it you on BT that preached how people needed to accept honest criticism without being so defensive? Time to buck up and swallow your own advice.

No... I'm not trying to make anything black or white. I accept bonsai for what it is. No matter what we do in bonsai we still manipulate them. While walter's trees may look more natural than those I showed previously his trees still retain the looks of being manipulated by man. Trees don't grow that way. Like Emeril Lagasse says, "I don't know where you get your flour, but mine don't come seasoned". So..I don't know where you collect your trees but mine don't come styled.


Sometimes I think you guys forget that bonsai requires some time. I know the branches are small...Duh! The tree had NO branches on it when I dug it. This is where it is in four years. That is pretty good for four years. I know people on this forum that have trees they have worked on for 30 years and it don't look this good. Let's have a little respect for the material. ME I can handle the criticism when it's valid, but I have to stick up for the material. I'm sorry that the tree doesn't have larger branches for you, but I have to wait for them to get there. Have I not shown enough work in just the last two weeks that speaks to anything?

Al Keppler has never, I repeat never ever shown anything on any forum that is finished as in done working on it, ALL MY WORKS ARE IN PROGRESS, does that make sense.

All I ask is a little patience. If you want finished stuff I'll just quit posting and come back in twenty or thirty years when it is mature and more to your liking. I feel thats stupid, and I feel it's more benificial to post and talk about it. But lets talk about it for what it is, a four your old bonsai in training...nothing more.

I'll be more than happy to offer my criticisms on any of your four year old material.

 

[Smoke]

Remember, Al, it's nothing personal. We are just talking about trees here. Just like other people talking about the weather. Light conversation in polite society.
When somebody in the elevator tells me "it looks like rain today, doesn't it", I am not going to punch him in the face.

Lets change that up a little and step into the elevator and tell the nice lady her breasts are too small....

 

[Attila Soos]

Lets change that up a little and step into the elevator and tell the nice lady her breasts are too small....

I wish I had the courage to say something like that...I am sure the other men in the elevator would have the time of their lives.

 

[Attila Soos]

No... I'm not trying to make anything black or white. I accept bonsai for what it is. No matter what we do in bonsai we still manipulate them. While walter's trees may look more natural than those I showed previously his trees still retain the looks of being manipulated by man. Trees don't grow that way. Like Emeril Lagasse says, "I don't know where you get your flour, but mine don't come seasoned". So..I don't know where you collect your trees but mine don't come styled.


Sometimes I think you guys forget that bonsai requires some time. I know the branches are small...Duh! The tree had NO branches on it when I dug it. This is where it is in four years. That is pretty good for four years. I know people on this forum that have trees they have worked on for 30 years and it don't look this good. Let's have a little respect for the material. ME I can handle the criticism when it's valid, but I have to stick up for the material. I'm sorry that the tree doesn't have larger branches for you, but I have to wait for them to get there. Have I not shown enough work in just the last two weeks that speaks to anything?

Al Keppler has never, I repeat never ever shown anything on any forum that is finished as in done working on it, ALL MY WORKS ARE IN PROGRESS, does that make sense.

All I ask is a little patience. If you want finished stuff I'll just quit posting and come back in twenty or thirty years when it is mature and more to your liking. I feel thats stupid, and I feel it's more benificial to post and talk about it. But lets talk about it for what it is, a four your old bonsai in training...nothing more.

I'll be more than happy to offer my criticisms on any of your four year old material.

Now we are talking.
I like that.

 

[Smoke]

I wish I had the courage to say something like that...I am sure the other men in the elevator would have the time of their lives.

Yea but you might have that punch coming...

 

[R_F]

No... I'm not trying to make anything black or white. I accept bonsai for what it is. No matter what we do in bonsai we still manipulate them. While walter's trees may look more natural than those I showed previously his trees still retain the looks of being manipulated by man. Trees don't grow that way. Like Emeril Lagasse says, "I don't know where you get your flour, but mine don't come seasoned". So..I don't know where you collect your trees but mine don't come styled.

I get this. AND I agree.

Sometimes I think you guys forget that bonsai requires some time. I know the branches are small...Duh!

Did you miss where I noted that you are probably aware of the current state of the branches?!

Let's have a little respect for the material. ME I can handle the criticism when it's valid, but I have to stick up for the material.

I did and do have respect for the material and I thought I stuck up for it when I said it was great material and you are taking it in the right direction.

All I ask is a little patience. If you want finished stuff I'll just quit posting and come back in twenty or thirty years when it is mature and more to your liking. I feel thats stupid, and I feel it's more benificial to post and talk about it. But lets talk about it for what it is, a four your old bonsai in training...nothing more.

I don't disagree with anything in the above quote.

I'll be more than happy to offer my criticisms on any of your four year old material.

You have. Shohin Crape Myrtle ring a bell? I appreciated yours and others criticism on that tree of mine. Even Attila's criticism (who I disagreed with on that thread) was appreciated...it got me thinking.

 

[Attila Soos]

Even Attila's criticism (who I disagreed with on that thread) was appreciated...it got me thinking.

Hey, watch out! No comments on my breast(s) please!

 

[R_F]

Al, one more thing....don't forget that the post I originally made (The one that seems to have gotten everything all riled up ) was intended for catfish chapstick....

 

[R_F]

hey, watch out! No comments on my breast(s) please!

lol.....

 

[Smoke]

Al, one more thing....don't forget that the post I originally made (The one that seems to have gotten everything all riled up ) was intended for catfish chapstick....

Maybe that should have been made more clear when I was told "To calm down".

 

[R_F]

Maybe that should have been made more clear when I was told "To calm down".

My bad Al. That was just a poor knee jerk comment on my part...it didn't occur to me after the fact that you may not have realized I was trying to talk "artistic devices" with catfish.

I look forward to what you are doing with this tree. It really is a great start.

 

[Attila Soos]

Maybe that should have been made more clear when I was told "To calm down".

Let's just simmer down now:

http://video.aol.ca/video-detail/simmer-down-now/574814413

 

[Smoke]

That was awesome. Thanks for the laugh....

Now look what you guys have done. I just missed two scrolls I was biddin on cause I didn't increase my bid defending my trees honer. They were awesome scrolls too.

maybe next time....I bought too many already anyway. My visa bill last month was 1600.00 EEEK!

 

[Smoke]

That is exactly the type of response that nurtures answers like this one. I bow once again oh great one!

As long as anyone sides with you, you are happy as a clam and strut like a peacock. But as soon as someone dare question what or why you are doing things you go off in a huff.

Before you slam me on this one, I posted you seem to have changed direction with this tree and I await your future work for my question. (post 24)

Wrongo, the question is not about technique nor why I have done things. The issue is small branches on a huge trunk. at this point in it's young life I can not change that at the moment. Past performance indicates that I take very drastic measures to achieve what I want. If I had a drastic measure to achieve what I want here I would have already done it.

About having some ego trip about the tree, come on, there are plenty in my own bonsai neighborhood that don't like it and have told me so. My plan is to make them eat crow. I see the future whether anyone else does or not.

 

[Smoke]

But there are many who see bonsai purely as a decoration piece, with no relevance to nature. They will say that there is nothing natural in bonsai anyway, so there is no point in emulating nature.
If that's the case, the image of being manipulated is quite appropriate. Creating abstract, geometric, and neat shapes looks pleasing to many people. They WANT you to know that their tree was manipulated to the extreme (see topiary).



(By the way, I am not saying that this is what Al's tree is trying to achieve).

Well, I am not trying to read anybody's mind, as to what they are trying to do with their trees.
The only thing we can do here really, is to say what "I" would do with the tree, based on "My" taste.

The poster of the tree can then take whatever he wants, from these comments.

The poster's intentions are also a mystery, some people post trees to get new ideas, others do it to get validation for their already pre-conceived ideas, other do it for the trip. There's no point of trying to figure out which one.

My quote below had to do with what you said in the top quote in parenthesis. I think there is room for both or all depending on how a person feels. Anyone out there ever fantisized about a three way...I rest my case. I think Walter calls these "slicked" like lipstick on a pig!

But you would have been closer to the truth.

 

[R_F]

Now look what you guys have done. I just missed two scrolls I was biddin on cause I didn't increase my bid defending my trees honer. They were awesome scrolls too.

So you're the one bidding up all the good scroll's on ebay....darn you....