I have been collecting some trees for the past 2 months in the mountains behind town. I have collected Larch, Lodgepole, Ponderosa pine, White Bark pine, and Western White pine. Every time I go I have to go a little higher to get into an area where they are still dormant, and I am about to run out of mountain. It seems that the pines go to sleep with the candles area pushed out a bit and are covered with a light, rusty brown sheath. When the time is right in the spring that area starts to grow and the candles are formed. Being new to this art, I wanted to ask about when to dig and when to no longer dig. When the candle shows signs of growth of any kind is it time to stop? I realize that it will depend on how I dig them. I try to dig and collect the entire root system of the tree and then take home in soil from the mountain and repot after trimming off a little of any tap roots, and raking out old soil in the correct soil for pines in growing pots. I then don't do anything with them until I see signs that new growth coming along, and then I do minimal until next spring. Could I get you to give me advice etc so I will not be doing this wrong?? Thanks much in advance. Peter
collecting trees
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Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
Stop collecting when they start moving. Has worked for me.
Never rake out the old soil in the first year. Keep as much intact as possible. And surround that soil with good inorganic soil.
Try not to over collect when you're not yet experienced. Some of the trees will die, and it would be a shame to lose nice specimens due to just digging before you know and feel how to handle them. Pines can take months to die, and months to show signs of them not feeling well. You don't know if you've done well until next year or at least the end of next season.
I have made that mistake enough times to know that's not advice to be ignored. The trees will be there next year, and the year after that, unless you dig them up now and push them over the edge. Then they're firewood.
Some people take years to succesfully collect a single specimen by doing every quarter of roots in stages. Some find that overly cautious, but they're always jealous in the end.
Never rake out the old soil in the first year. Keep as much intact as possible. And surround that soil with good inorganic soil.
Try not to over collect when you're not yet experienced. Some of the trees will die, and it would be a shame to lose nice specimens due to just digging before you know and feel how to handle them. Pines can take months to die, and months to show signs of them not feeling well. You don't know if you've done well until next year or at least the end of next season.
I have made that mistake enough times to know that's not advice to be ignored. The trees will be there next year, and the year after that, unless you dig them up now and push them over the edge. Then they're firewood.
Some people take years to succesfully collect a single specimen by doing every quarter of roots in stages. Some find that overly cautious, but they're always jealous in the end.
Can I assume that if I get new growth and candles pushing after digging that I have a pretty good chance that the tree will live? What do you mean by "doing every quarter of roots in stages"? It is also hard to keep original soil intact as it is sandy, rocky and falls away easily. Your help is appreciated
RobertB
Chumono
Can we see some pics of the collected trees?
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
I have had trees push new candles and then die. Pines go slow, it could have been some left over stored energy, it could have been some survival mechanism, there's not much they give you. Compared to other plants at least, which respond in a matter of hours.
If the soil falls out easily, then there's no need for raking. It's key to keep everything as intact as possible. Some pines rely heavily on fungi in the soil, and any movement would break their umbillical chord, so to speak, depriving them of what the fungi used to provide.
As for the quarters, imagine roots growing in a circle with the trunk in the center. Every year a sector of that circle is dug up, filled with bonsai soil or peat moss, and left alone.
After 4 years, the entire tree is ready for being collected: the roots have been taken care of and have regrown within that 'container but not a container' piece of soil.
If the soil falls out easily, then there's no need for raking. It's key to keep everything as intact as possible. Some pines rely heavily on fungi in the soil, and any movement would break their umbillical chord, so to speak, depriving them of what the fungi used to provide.
As for the quarters, imagine roots growing in a circle with the trunk in the center. Every year a sector of that circle is dug up, filled with bonsai soil or peat moss, and left alone.
After 4 years, the entire tree is ready for being collected: the roots have been taken care of and have regrown within that 'container but not a container' piece of soil.
yenling83
Omono
I think the best times of the year is either as close to spring as you can get or fall. Maybe even more important than when you collect is your aftercare set up. I collect Spring, Summer and Fall, but i'd only collect something with a nice root pad in the summer. I recommend 100% sifted pumice and building a nice tight wooden box for your trees. After collection you don't want your tree's roots to drown in water as they are not use to it and their foliage cannot support the uptake of that much water. Building a box without large gaps from the roots will help.
If your just starting don't collect that super nice one. See how the first year or two goes beforehand, force yourself to be patient because it will still be there for you.
Good luck!
If your just starting don't collect that super nice one. See how the first year or two goes beforehand, force yourself to be patient because it will still be there for you.
Good luck!
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Can perlite substitute for sifted pumice. Pumice is not locally found, but I can buy and have it shipped in. What is the best sized pumice to get? Also I don't understand why the box verses a nice sized grow pot that drains well. Thank you for the help. Peter
bonsaichile
Omono
where are you? Put your location in your profile so people can give more specific advice
I live in Baker City, Oregon...NE Oregon. Town elevation is about 2800'. Snow in winters and temps in winter can get to -15, and summer maybe 100. Very little humidity in the winter and low the rest of the year also
Here are some not to good pictures that I took of collecting this spring. You will see larch, 5 needle Whitebark Pine, Ponderose, Lodgepole, and spruce. I also tried to show the type of area that I collect in. Sometimes it's foggy and raining, but the show goes on. Wonderful specimens on the sides of those rock cliffs, but dynamite would not bring them down I don't think. Any specimen that is on the side of a loose hill always has a curve in the trunk at ground level, and a tap root that might be as long as the tree is tall. As the hill sluffs off it slowly covers the trunk and pushes it over just a little, but the tree is always reaching for the sun so turns up and stays upright. Very quiet up there and almost a little spooky
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I drive through there every so often. I'm always scoping out the pines growing on the side of I-84 in the Blue mountains. Pretty scary driving in the winter though!!
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
That bare root is quite bare. Almost no feeder/fine roots. That's what I personally call on the edge. Some rooting hormone could help a lot on growing them back, but experience taught me there's a low (>30%) chance of survival with roots looking like that.
If there's a way to stop the soil from falling off, like pushing a board or bucket underneath, that will increase the chance of survival a lot! Pines need that original soil and they need those roots.
If there's a way to stop the soil from falling off, like pushing a board or bucket underneath, that will increase the chance of survival a lot! Pines need that original soil and they need those roots.
I agree that is a scary root with no feeders etc. That was from a lodgepole. You mention rooting hormone...does one put that on the roots before planting in a grow pot or how would you apply it? If I were to take more soil with the plant, then I would not be able to do that. I do use a liquid called "ROOT AND GROW" by Bonide when I first pot them. Maybe I should be using it more often??
Also wanted opinions about collecting in the fall verses the spring. I'm not sure how one would be able to tell when the trees go dormant and if that is an accepted practice or is spring a better time. Help appreciated. Peter
Also wanted opinions about collecting in the fall verses the spring. I'm not sure how one would be able to tell when the trees go dormant and if that is an accepted practice or is spring a better time. Help appreciated. Peter
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
My opinion on fall collection is: roots will be tender when they regrow, which makes them more susceptible to frost.
Cold weather is rot-season and damaged plant parts tend to rot.
Others might apply different logic. Many ways lead to rome.
Rooting powder can be used on wounds directly, on roots directly as well. Just a quick dip, overdoing it can cause inhibitory effects on rooting. Although pines can usually handle large amounts, a little less is better than too much.
Some rooting solutions have very high phosphorus content, which is good for rooting established plants but it kills off mycorrhizae which you'd want to keep. If possible, stick with IBA-containing solutions.
Cold weather is rot-season and damaged plant parts tend to rot.
Others might apply different logic. Many ways lead to rome.
Rooting powder can be used on wounds directly, on roots directly as well. Just a quick dip, overdoing it can cause inhibitory effects on rooting. Although pines can usually handle large amounts, a little less is better than too much.
Some rooting solutions have very high phosphorus content, which is good for rooting established plants but it kills off mycorrhizae which you'd want to keep. If possible, stick with IBA-containing solutions.
Leo in N E Illinois
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I would use the rooting hormones only one time. As @Wires_Guy_wires said, too much can block root formation. It's hard to know what is the "exact right amount", but there is plenty of experimental data to show that too high a dose of IBA or any other hormone can block root formation for as much as a year or more. So don't over do it, one dose is enough.
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
You should not be using it at all for the reasons I mentioned; that amount of P is going to kill whatever has been keeping them alive out there in nature.
If clonex gel is still legal in the states, get that. If not, try and find something that has as little additions as possible, like water soluble IBA-K (the potassium salt form of IBA).
Again, many roads lead to rome. But it's better to be overly cauteous than to take too many risks.
Wait with nutrients until plants have established, and show vigorous growth. This is a general rule for cuttings, but it works on cellected material as well. Especially pines are easily overestimated in their regenerative capabilities. That's mainly because they're kept alive by soil microbe interactions, which seem to be lost completely after bare rooting.
A pine in nature has a few feet of mycorrhizae going in all directions, adding up to miles in total, a bare root takes around 3-6 months to re establish just a fraction of that.
If clonex gel is still legal in the states, get that. If not, try and find something that has as little additions as possible, like water soluble IBA-K (the potassium salt form of IBA).
Again, many roads lead to rome. But it's better to be overly cauteous than to take too many risks.
Wait with nutrients until plants have established, and show vigorous growth. This is a general rule for cuttings, but it works on cellected material as well. Especially pines are easily overestimated in their regenerative capabilities. That's mainly because they're kept alive by soil microbe interactions, which seem to be lost completely after bare rooting.
A pine in nature has a few feet of mycorrhizae going in all directions, adding up to miles in total, a bare root takes around 3-6 months to re establish just a fraction of that.
