collected juniper - seeking style input

[amethystearth]

View attachment 67961

Hey all, I'm a bit in over my head with this one! Collected recently so no work this year. But I need to start formulating a plan now.

I live in US in North texas (zone 8). It was collected a little over a month ago. Suspected eastern red cedar.

Any style input greatly appreciated. Also does anyone that has experience with this species have any pointers for chasing back the foliage? Also not sure what to do about the long straight branches on the upper area. I am pretty sure one will be a new leader and I'll jiin whatever is above it.

 

[Dav4]

View attachment 67961

Hey all, I'm a bit in over my head with this one! Collected recently so no work this year. But I need to start formulating a plan now.

I live in US in North texas (zone 8). It was collected a little over a month ago. Suspected eastern red cedar.

Any style input greatly appreciated. Also does anyone that has experience with this species have any pointers for chasing back the foliage? Also not sure what to do about the long straight branches on the upper area. I am pretty sure one will be a new leader and I'll jiin whatever is above it.

I hate looking at attachments, so there you go

 

[Dav4]

If this is an ERC, it's the best one I've seen by a factor of 10!!!! I suspect it is another Texas native but not sure. No rush with styling...you take your time with good collected material like this. Wait until it's grown well for at least 2 years before thinking about picking up a pair of scissors. Please take more pictures from different angles so we can see everything. Fwiw, that first pic has great movement and taper. Cleaning up the trunk/identifying natural deadwood features would be the first thing to do. I like it!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I agree with Dave, not likely an ERC, maybe an Ashe juniper. Nice trunk. Since it was recently collected, I urge you to mist the foliage, trunk, and branches several times daily, and do not remove any foliage or do any work on it for at least a year.

It will tell you soon how it's doing...if interior foliage yellows and falls, it's a good sign. If the tips turn pale, it's a bad sign. Keep misting. And, if you have access to more, keep collecting! Keep as much foliage as possible, and stuff the roots into the smallest containers possible...and keep misting!

Here are some collected in 2013; all but 1 made it, and some are ready for work this year...2 years later.

 

[amethystearth]

If this is an ERC, it's the best one I've seen by a factor of 10!!!! I suspect it is another Texas native but not sure. No rush with styling...you take your time with good collected material like this. Wait until it's grown well for at least 2 years before thinking about picking up a pair of scissors. Please take more pictures from different angles so we can see everything. Fwiw, that first pic has great movement and taper. Cleaning up the trunk/identifying natural deadwood features would be the first thing to do. I like it!

Cheers, Dave. I have no plans to cut on it until it is growing strong again in the pot. I've had a month and only recently could finally get a good picture. This tree is the most unphotogenic tree ever. Hard to see what's going on. I'll work on that next it gets sunny and repost a whole album of angles and stuff for better advice. Thanks!

 

[amethystearth]

I agree with Dave, not likely an ERC, maybe an Ashe juniper. Nice trunk. Since it was recently collected, I urge you to mist the foliage, trunk, and branches several times daily, and do not remove any foliage or do any work on it for at least a year.

It will tell you soon how it's doing...if interior foliage yellows and falls, it's a good sign. If the tips turn pale, it's a bad sign. Keep misting. And, if you have access to more, keep collecting! Keep as much foliage as possible, and stuff the roots into the smallest containers possible...and keep misting!

Here are some collected in 2013; all but 1 made it, and some are ready for work this year...2 years later.

thanks Brian! I'm horrible with juniper species, but I'm fairly certain I have a little ash juniper as well and it looks quite different. More scale foliage, lots of pollen on it, and the foliage is generally more yellow in tone. Both trees came from the same site (the guy I'm with seemed to think all were ERC and ashe juniper) Maybe it's another kind of local juniper?What about it made you sure it's not ERC? Not doubting, just curious.

I've been misting it irregularly. Been having some overcast and rainy weather that is helping I'm sure. Removed part of the long branches at collection at someone's advice (he said since the root ball wasn't so good that removing a little could help it). I have two or three small growth tips that are pale but otherwise everything is green and bright. Haven't seen in interior yellowing, is that due to sun or what? Most of the foliage has a good view of the sun. I do have a good spot to collect these and will be getting much more.


That material looks nice. How do you go about tightening foliage and filling bare spots on juniper?

 

[Bunjeh]

Listen to the experts. Brian and Dave will never steer you wrong. Also, listen to the tree. Right now, and I know it's hard to do with junis, this one is whispering '''(fukinagashi)''.

 

[Eric Group]

If you have only had it out the ground one month, please heed BVF's advice and don't do any work to it right away!

As for what you should do eventually? Perhaps- though it is hard to tell from the pics- you have a heart turn in the main trunk back to the left about half way up? If it is as I see it, I'd tighten that turn up, squash the trunk down closer tot he base and make that the apex with the end of it wired down to make a branch... Take out those long straight branches- make some dead wood, wire the foliage to get some shape and pads going... Then see what you have. Hard to tell right now and again- other than perhaps removing any dead growth you might have- I wouldn't do anything that might stress this tree right away.

Nice trunk! You should have plenty of options!

 

[Bunjeh]

Found this for you:

Ashe’s juniper (Juniperus ashei) is much less common, and differs from eastern red-cedar in a number of characters. The most obvious difference is its multi-trunked growth form (vs. single-trunked in eastern red-cedar). Other characters are:

1. the presence of white rings or patches on the bark of Ashe’s juniper trunks and branches (vs. a lack of these patches on eastern red-cedar); this character is the source of another common name, “white cedar.”
2. darker green foliage that generally stays green in winter on Ashe’s juniper (vs. olive green to yellowish green foliage often turning bronze in winter in eastern red-cedar)
3. margins of scale-like leaves with fine teeth in Ashe’s juniper (vs. toothless in eastern red-cedar).

The pollen of the ERC is a known allergen, although not as potent as that of the related Juniperus ashei (Ashe juniper), which sheds pollen a month earlier. People allergic to one are usually allergic to both. J. virginiana sheds pollen as early as late winter and through early spring. Consequently, what begins as an allergy to Ashe juniper in the winter may extend into spring, since the pollination of the eastern juniper follows that of the Ashe juniper.

 

[amethystearth]

If you have only had it out the ground one month, please heed BVF's advice and don't do any work to it right away!

As for what you should do eventually? Perhaps- though it is hard to tell from the pics- you have a heart turn in the main trunk back to the left about half way up? If it is as I see it, I'd tighten that turn up, squash the trunk down closer tot he base and make that the apex with the end of it wired down to make a branch... Take out those long straight branches- make some dead wood, wire the foliage to get some shape and pads going... Then see what you have. Hard to tell right now and again- other than perhaps removing any dead growth you might have- I wouldn't do anything that might stress this tree right away.

Nice trunk! You should have plenty of options!

Definitely didn't plan to cut this anytime soon. Just need to start thinking of its future now.
maybe in this picture you can see it better. That turn is quite tight, and thick. Not sure if I'll be able to manipulate it much. Hopefully I can get better pictures sometime this year. Either way there isn't much to clean up on this one, but hopefully when I do that (after it recovers of course), what I have to work with will become more clear

 

[amethystearth]

Found this for you:

Ashe’s juniper (Juniperus ashei) is much less common, and differs from eastern red-cedar in a number of characters. The most obvious difference is its multi-trunked growth form (vs. single-trunked in eastern red-cedar). Other characters are:

1. the presence of white rings or patches on the bark of Ashe’s juniper trunks and branches (vs. a lack of these patches on eastern red-cedar); this character is the source of another common name, “white cedar.”
2. darker green foliage that generally stays green in winter on Ashe’s juniper (vs. olive green to yellowish green foliage often turning bronze in winter in eastern red-cedar)
3. margins of scale-like leaves with fine teeth in Ashe’s juniper (vs. toothless in eastern red-cedar).

The pollen of the ERC is a known allergen, although not as potent as that of the related Juniperus ashei (Ashe juniper), which sheds pollen a month earlier. People allergic to one are usually allergic to both. J. virginiana sheds pollen as early as late winter and through early spring. Consequently, what begins as an allergy to Ashe juniper in the winter may extend into spring, since the pollination of the eastern juniper follows that of the Ashe juniper.

Bunjeh,

Well that's very useful. I'm sure someone else could do a better job with it though. I noticed the one that was identified as ashe juniper by the guy with me lacks the fine teeth on the scale foliage (but it also has only scale foliage, no needle). It's also more yellow/bronze than the other tree (shown in this thread). The tree shown in this thread is all green and has toothy scale (and also needle immature foliage) maybe one will throw off some pollen soon (I noticed the one I thought had pollen doesn't seem to now or possibly mistook yellowish foliage for pollen). Can't tell much differences between bark.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

What about it made you sure it's not ERC? Not doubting, just curious.

How do you go about tightening foliage and filling bare spots on juniper?

The foliage doesn't look right for ERC, which is denser and usually half or more juvenile. Yours appears to have largely mature foliage. I would have actually guessed it to be RMJ, but I don't know if they grow in your area. Junipers can hybridize easily in the wild, so it could be a mix of whatever's around.

The trunk has movement, which is also uncharacteristic for ERC. Frankly I hope for your sake it's anything but ERC, because the trunk is great, and you'll be disappointed with ERC growth habits, to the point where you'd be better off grafting another cultivar like Itoigawa to replace the ERC foliage.

But that's down the road...keep it strong and misted and if it's alive in a year, it will be time to think about styling, building density, changing foliage, etc.

 

[amethystearth]

The foliage doesn't look right for ERC, which is denser and usually half or more juvenile. Yours appears to have largely mature foliage. I would have actually guessed it to be RMJ, but I don't know if they grow in your area. Junipers can hybridize easily in the wild, so it could be a mix of whatever's around.

The trunk has movement, which is also uncharacteristic for ERC. Frankly I hope for your sake it's anything but ERC, because the trunk is great, and you'll be disappointed with ERC growth habits, to the point where you'd be better off grafting another cultivar like Itoigawa to replace the ERC foliage.

But that's down the road...keep it strong and misted and if it's alive in a year, it will be time to think about styling, building density, changing foliage, etc.

It may be that both of my junipers are ash juniper. Thanks the insight. Maybe I'll find a local who knows juniper better. You'll be seeing plenty of this tree down the road if it lives. So far I've collected two junipers of similar look and both died within weeks of collection. So I'm hopeful on this one haha

 

[Eric Group]

Definitely didn't plan to cut this anytime soon. Just need to start thinking of its future now. View attachment 67968
maybe in this picture you can see it better. That turn is quite tight, and thick. Not sure if I'll be able to manipulate it much. Hopefully I can get better pictures sometime this year. Either way there isn't much to clean up on this one, but hopefully when I do that (after it recovers of course), what I have to work with will become more clear

Boy, that ain't what I thought it was! I thought it curved right then back herd left.. This will be tough to get a good bend in for sure..

You don 't see a lot of good ones with Juniper.. People tend to bend and twist them all over the place- but this might be a formal upright candidate! Looks arrow straight, nice taper... Cannot see what that right branch is doing, but it is so thick.., might be that the right branch is your new trunk and the rest of the tree is a big ole Jin? I just don't see any easy way to get some good movement here...

 

[amethystearth]

Boy, that ain't what I thought it was! I thought it curved right then back herd left.. This will be tough to get a good bend in for sure..

You don 't see a lot of good ones with Juniper.. People tend to bend and twist them all over the place- but this might be a formal upright candidate! Looks arrow straight, nice taper... Cannot see what that right branch is doing, but it is so thick.., might be that the right branch is your new trunk and the rest of the tree is a big ole Jin? I just don't see any easy way to get some good movement here...

Wow I didn't even think of that. It would take quite a few years to grow out that branch as a new trunk. But very possible. The branch curves hard towards the back a little. There is a little growth at the end of the branch but mid way towards the trunk there are several vértice shoots that will create a knot in time I believe. Here is a photo of the other side. I suppose over time I could reduce foliage on the upper part and encourage that lower branch to develop more branching and foliage so that the large jiin isn't such a huge change. In general this move would be longer but would make better taper