chopped up Azaleas

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So, I was going to post about these guys on John's thread about drastically pruning azaleas, but I want one to keep pics separate and track progress without spamming his thread! So, time for the photo dump!
Kurume Hampton's Beauty 1:
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Kurume HB 2:
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Hard tot ell, but there are tiny little buds popping around that little scar on the front, so this one is moving.. it was chopped weeks after the first one.

Photography assistant obediently NOT touching the plants! :)
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I tried the same after seeing John's thread and for the moment not too much success... :(

So I don't know if it's because of our weather which is a pain in the butt this year (last week-end felt like a nice Halloween) or if it's because I did the mistake to attach the plant to the pot using copper wires before learning that copper is actually poisonous to azalea... :oops:
Well for the moment i removed the copper and am just hoping for the best! :confused:
 
Oh wait, there's more...
Satsuki "Miyuki"- this is one I am super excited about! These are very horizontal growers, tiny leaves, GORGEOUS multi-colored blooms with white, Pink, and swirled blooms on the same plant! This is an experiment to see how it reacts to a major chop. I know the pink blooms can be more dominant on some of the multi-colored blooming plants (from what I have read anyway..), so I am hoping it keeps the bloom variance after the chops.
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Satsuki "Beni Kashima"-This one is a MONSTER!! With some MONSTER wounds.. Branches were literally growing below the original soil level and all sorts of mess, so it took some cutting to get back to the bones! I was able to salvage a good many ground layered multi-trunkers from these branches I cut off and I am really excited about them! They did not miss a BEAT when I repotted them and this big guy is throwing out new buds at a fast pace right now...

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The blooms- great red color, cool multi-layer almost rose like bloom.
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Satsuki "Chinzan"- originally chopped hard last year, grew back out, repotted this season and trimmed a little bit more- just starting to back bud after the pruning. After studying these pics, I think I need to shorten it a bit and rework/ REMOVE a couple more branches.... big ole honking trunk on this one though...DSC01428.JPGDSC01426.JPG DSC01427.JPG
I believe this is another Satsuki "Christmas Cheer" (Might be Kurume, I cannot remember...)- tinly little red blooms... Thought it had great movement when I bought it! Then.. I dug down in the pot and found an arrow straight trunk section no taper... Oh well... I can air layer next year if needed.
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I tried the same after seeing John's thread and for the moment not too much success... :(

So I don't know if it's because of our weather which is a pain in the butt this year (last week-end felt like a nice Halloween) or if it's because I did the mistake to attach the plant to the pot using copper wires before learning that copper is actually poisonous to azalea... :oops:
Well for the moment i removed the copper and am just hoping for the best! :confused:
Copper wire won't poison azaleas. It takes like over 100 PPM of copper in the soil to start stressing them out, and the likelihood of wire adding that much is pretty slim. Copper is actually a micronutrient they- and most plants- NEED in small quantities for optimal health. Aluminum sulphate WILL poison them...

You should be fine, it has only been 2-3 weeks since you cut yours back right? It takes AT LEAST that long.. normally almost a full month depending on the variety, health, weather... If it is still green underneath the bark, you will be good to go.. It IS possible to take too much off the roots and kill one, or if you do this with a tree that was not too healthy and they will drop dead... but don't give up yet.
 
Copper wire won't poison azaleas. It takes like over 100 PPM of copper in the soil to start stressing them out, and the likelihood of wire adding that much is pretty slim. Copper is actually a micronutrient they- and most plants- NEED in small quantities for optimal health. Aluminum sulphate WILL poison them...

You should be fine, it has only been 2-3 weeks since you cut yours back right? It takes AT LEAST that long.. normally almost a full month depending on the variety, health, weather... If it is still green underneath the bark, you will be good to go.. It IS possible to take too much off the roots and kill one, or if you do this with a tree that was not too healthy and they will drop dead... but don't give up yet.

Well another B-nuts told me for the copper, anyway I removed it and won't pot my plant again to put it back ;)
But in fact I think I'm fine because looking at the pics on this post it seems that the bud back starts with some white spots on the trunk and I just saw today that mine seems to have that :)
 
Yes, the new buds tend to start as little white specs, and might be a bit slow at first, but once the first leaves pop, a healthy azalea can grow so fast sometimes you can see the difference over the course of the day!

I have heard/ read the same about both copper and aluminum wire being a potential killer of azaleas... Sure, copper toxicity can occur in these plants, but only at high doses, and aluminum is poison to them- again if present in quantities like you might find in soils dosed up with aluminum Sulphate... Which is a soil acidified and something people will WRONGLY recommend for people amend a soil with when planting azaleas because they like acidic soil! We had a big talk about all this on some other thread one day- end result: most said wire will not break down tak the point of releasing a bunch of that element into the soil.. At least not enough to be harmful to the plant..
 
I wired some branches of one of my azaleas with copper last year - they (the wired branches) were dead this spring. I didn't notice any ill effects last summer-fall.

Standard anecdotal 'science' (or standard managerial inference: one data point is a trend) therefore posits copper wire kills azaleas.

So if any of you other azalea enthsiasts have a branch to spare, puts a few snug wraps of cupper wire on it and see what has happened, next spring. If you've got some Al wire laying around and another branch to put at risk, put a few snug wraps of aluminum wire on it and see what has happened to it also, next spring.

Would be interesting to pool results, but that might spoil all the fun. :cool:
 
I tried the same after seeing John's thread and for the moment not too much success... :(

So I don't know if it's because of our weather which is a pain in the butt this year (last week-end felt like a nice Halloween) or if it's because I did the mistake to attach the plant to the pot using copper wires before learning that copper is actually poisonous to azalea... :oops:
Well for the moment i removed the copper and am just hoping for the best! :confused:

Alain,

Don't lose hope, it may still sprout, as long as it is green under the bark it has a chance.

Don't worry about using copper wire on azaleas, it will not harm them. I use copper to secure all of mine in the pots, as well as the mesh on the drainage holes, because I have found that over time (one season) the fertilizer seems to corrode aluminum wire into. Copper wire and the oxide that it forms is not toxic to azaleas or anyother tree that I have in a pot.

John
 
You likely snapped the branches wiring it.
I've used copper and aluminum wire on azaleas for years with no ill effects. Stating aluminum is toxic because aluminum sulfate has shown signs of plant stress over time in one old study is like calling table salt toxic because it contains sodium and chlorine.
 
Those are nice, Eric. Where did you find so many satsukis? I have had no luck finding them around here, other than the gumpos, chinzan, wakaebisu. Oh and mono no haru.

Christmas cheer is a Kurume, btw.

John
 
You likely snapped the branches wiring it.
I've used copper and aluminum wire on azaleas for years with no ill effects. Stating aluminum is toxic because aluminum sulfate has shown signs of plant stress over time in one old study is like calling table salt toxic because it contains sodium and chlorine.
I understand the aluminum wire won't hurt, but aluminum can be toxic to azaleas.. So can copper in large amounts. Again- will the wire leach out enough to hurt them- obviously not, because I think most of us here have wired them with both and had no ill effects. (I even started using Al wire again after the last time we talked about this and have had no ill effects, so thanks for giving me the courage to do it again because I don't generally keep copper wire on hand much..)

But many sources confirm that aluminum can kill them- one of the most clear and to the point:
"To lower the pH (increase the soil acidity), sprinkle several handfuls of ferrous sulphate around the base of the plant. Never use aluminum sulphate, as the aluminum is toxic to azaleas."
http://www.azaleas.org/index.pl/azculture.html

This one goes into it a little further:
"Never use aluminum sulfate for making the planting medium more acid. Thousands of azaleas and rhododendrons are killed each year by the addition of aluminum sulfate to planting mediums. Aluminum ions under very acid conditions are very toxic to all of the rhododendron genus.

Aluminum is not considered to be an essential element for plant growth. In fact, for most plants, high levels of available soil aluminum are toxic causing stunting of root growth and eventual death if soil aluminum is high enough. Usually the soil pH has to be less than 4.5 for this to happen. Rhododendrons and azaleas are more vulnerable than many other plants."
http://www.rhodyman.net/rhodyho.html

Not arguing with you Brian, I just want to make it clear so nobody goes out and tries to make their soil more acidic for their azaleas with Aluminum Sulphate. I was one of the lucky ones who was recommended to use Al Sulphate for Azaleas early on.. And it ended badly.

I think what happens with these concerns about certain things being toxic is similar to what Oso described above- Basically "I used ____ wire/ fert/ soil on my plant and it died/ branches died/ it declined in health, so ____ must have killed it!" When in actuality, the plant died because of... SOMETHING else.. A cracked branch as you mentioned Brian, or a bug/ disease/ too little water on a hot day...

In this instance I tend to believe the cracked branch theory. They are tough to wire, not very pliable once the branches get any kind of girth, it is easy to knock off new growth by accident, the wire bites in and scars them up fast, they crack easily and have thin bark that does not knit up wounds like that well. They are fast growers sometimes, but that doesn't mean they heal over large wounds quickly either.. Again due to the thin bark I guess? Regardless, I have only had success wiring young branches... Older ones I just use wires to pull them down or find an alternative means of bending...
 
Those are nice, Eric. Where did you find so many satsukis? I have had no luck finding them around here, other than the gumpos, chinzan, wakaebisu. Oh and mono no haru.

Christmas cheer is a Kurume, btw.

John
Thanks! I thought I was twisted up on the Christmas cheer...

We have an azalea farm close bye. He has basically got the largest collection of living azaleas I have ever seen! Amazing! The exact location is a closely guarded secret. :)

They are all grown from cuttings, most have probably been sitting there for 15-20+ years... It was like a dream finding this place! Thanks to John and Ken for pointing me in the right direction! He does not ship to my knowledge, only takes cash... I am planning another trip out there one day- last time I came home with a whole truck full of them! I have a few specific species I want to look for next time.
 
Keep reading Eric, but read with a critical mind. I've read those articles too and they're far from conclusive, and cite far-too few instances. It claims aluminum sulfate is toxic, then mistates aluminum as the culprit in your bolded quote. And the pH level required for any chemical reactions to occur with Al is in the 5-4.5 range. Far lower than I've managed to get kanuma to register.

Here is my take on it: many, including me, have used copper and aluminum wire on azaleas for decades and until anyone can show conclusive poisoning damage as a result of wiring, I maintain it's a myth. Prove me wrong.
 
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Wow, seems like I opened a can of worms with my Cu remark :)

Aluminum sulfate should not be a really easy component to produce just by wiring the plant.
After a quick look at it's chemistry it seems that the best way to produce Al sulfate is to add Al Oxide to Sulfuric acid or to boil Al metal in Sulfuric acid. I don't really see how the Al metal of the wire could be able to produce Al sulfate just by being here and being watered.

Copper is much more reactive and oxides easily, that the reason why when I was told it could be poisonous I didn't find it too weird.

Anyway after reading all the posts here I guess that both Cu and Al are fine unless the plant takes a too big quantities of them (in an assimilable form), which might be the case for any elements I suppose.
 
Keep reading Eric, but read with a critical mind. I've read those articles too and they're far from conclusive, and cite far-too few instances. It claims aluminum sulfate is toxic, then mistates aluminum as the culprit in your bolded quote. And the pH level required for any chemical reactions to occur with Al is in the 5-4.5 range. Far lower than I've managed to get kanuma to register.

Here is my take on it: many, including me, have used copper and aluminum wire on azaleas for decades and until anyone can show conclusive poisoning damage as a result of wiring, I maintain it's a myth. Prove me wrong.
I know Brain- again, I wasn't saying that WIRE can cause the toxicity, I am just siting evidence that Al can cause harm and I do have experience with Al sulphate hurting my trees.. Years ago, I don't have pics or details... but yes, I agree... It doesn't seem as though wire of either copper or aluminum would put enough in the soil to cause harm- unless you water your trees with battery acid, in which case you got a lot bigger problems than Aluminum or copper poisoning! LOL :)
 
Regardless... I only wired one or two of these into the pot, I used Aluminum wire and the trees seem fine! I also did NOT use aluminum sulphate, so we should be good! :)

I did hit them all with a dose of Miracid yesterday, the first real fert for most of these since the chops. Should kick start the growth that is already exploding on most of them! I could tell a difference on some of them just from yesterday to today!
 
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