Chinese Elm Root-bound after TWO MONTHS!

[daygan]

Today I was noting that my Chinese elm had a couple new yellow leaves, something that wasn't prolific, but I have definitely noticed a few over the last couple weeks. That, on top of the fact that it wasn't showing any explosive growth on its second flush of leaves, and all of its leaves were still bonsai-small, despite not having been pruned, being given a generous amount of fertilizer, and being in a considerably large pot made me consider the possibility that it might be root bound. I'll let the pictures speak for me. The pictures are in chronological order, and the first one is, obviously, from this year's repot and root-pruning, which was on March 20th.

 

[JudyB]

pretty fun stuff Daygan!

 

[daygan]

ha ha anyway, with this kind of growth in just two months, I'm wondering if it will get a fair amount of top growth over the next five or six months we have here of growing season, and maybe some more girth ... we'll see

 

[october]

Wow..daygan..That is an incredible amounts of growth. Chinese elms are just some of these best growers in the tree world. Both for roots and branches. As far as new girth, foliage and branches. I don't think you are going to get that much this season or as much as you normally would. Right now, the trees main priority is to build up a whole new root system. The tree now has to try to survive on an extremely limited root sytem. Simultaneously, it has to sustain a very large tree on a root system functioning at only about a 15% capacity compared it what it had.

I mean I could be wrong about the tree not putting on an extreme amount of growth this season, trees do surprise us. I was just speaking about general plant physiology.

Rob

 

[daygan]

Thanks, Rob, for the info. I actually have no idea what normal is for this tree yet because I just collected it last year. I didn't prune anything from the top on collection and this March was the first root prune it's ever had. We'll see what happens

Just checking to make sure - when you say its root system is at 15% capacity to what it had - you're not confusing the before and after picture are you? When I pulled it out of its previous pot today, I didn't prune any of its roots (which filled the entire pot) - I just dropped it into the larger pot (which is actually a laundry basket with screen siding inside to hold my soil in )

 

[Poink88]

Daygan,

I am surprised that you did not prune the top when you collected. It paid off though by providing you that much roots. Trees usually respond by providing roots to supply the tree what it needs. Leaves use the most water so that basically dictates how much root it needs. The other response will be to drop unsustainable leaves and keep only what the roots can support.

The down side to this is that you did not get the opportunity to get lower branches that you would have it you pruned/chopped it. I collected lots of elm (cedar) early this year and they too are very prolific root growth wise.

 

[Poink88]

BTW, Have you considered air layering the top part in the future? (instead of chopping it)

 

[october]

Oh, I was mistaken, I thought it was the opposite.. Thanks for the clarification. After a couple years maybe consider an air layer as Poink88 suggested. A chop might also be done to create a nice, smaller tree. However, a chop of that size might be a gamble. However, these trees are some of the best growers.

You must have done an outstanding job collecting and taking great care of this tree. The root system has flourished and looks incredibly healthy.

Rob

 

[daygan]

The other response will be to drop unsustainable leaves and keep only what the roots can support.

Funny that you mention this - he he - when I first collected it (out of season) I was still trying to do bonsai indoors and also didn't have good bonsai soil yet, so it was potted in dirt, put in a window, and within a few weeks, almost all of its foliage was turning yellow and dropping. That's when I decided to put it outside in the sun... . Aside from being collected out of season, being indoors, and being in poor soil, I suppose the dropping of the leaves might have also had something to do with its sudden root loss (from collecting).

The down side to this is that you did not get the opportunity to get lower branches that you would have it you pruned/chopped it.

yeah, I'm not worried about that yet for this one - I still want it to get a bit thicker, if it can, and then after it's reached a good thickness, i'll chop and start building from there.

BTW, Have you considered air layering the top part in the future? (instead of chopping it)

The thought did cross my mind. I'll have to see what kind of mood I'm in when the time comes to chop. Honestly, though, since I've got Chinese elms growing naturally all over the place here, it really would just be easier to go out and collect than to air layer.

 

[Poink88]

I'd bet dropping the leaves was due to combination of things you mentioned but mainly due to being indoor. Humidity indoor is low and leaves will transpire a lot more water (that the roots cannot supply) and they just die and fall.

 

[Adair M]

I understand that you want a thicker trunk, but I think you need to chop the tree to have it develop some low branches. As it is now, all those high branches might induce trunk thickness, but it will not have any taper. You might get it as thick as a telephone pole, but without taper, it will not make a pleasing bonsai.

Also, the nebari is one sided. I would work on fixing that, too.

 

[daygan]

Thanks Adair. My thought is that I want to get the bottom-most section of the trunk to its desired thickness first, then chop low and start working on taper (part of the building process), since, I think once I chop, if I want anything below the chop to develop any more thickness, I'll still have to get the top growth back to greater than its total mass (or at least the original diameter) before the chop was made anyway if I want that section to get any thicker, as is explained in this progression (bottom section, last paragraph being the most critical). The important, key statement is that a new tree must be allowed to grow freely until the base has reached its desired thickness for the bonsai that it will one day become. If I chop now, any more effort to increase the size of the base will actually erode taper and eventually just bring me right back to the point that I'm at right now, with maybe a little more movement in the trunk. That's how I understand it, at least. What do you think?

And, yes, those surface roots are pretty ugly. That's one reason i didn't prune yesterday when I repotted (aside from the fact that I think root pruning should generally only be done in the early spring anyway when buds are swelling or just about to unfurl). I'm going to let it all grow and see what I get next year.

 

[iant]

I agree with your plan. Keep the foliage and keep the roots until you get close to your desired lower segment trunk thickness. Otherwise you're taking two steps forward and one step back all the time.
Ian

 

[fviljoen963]

what happened to this tree?

 

[daygan]

I wasn't able to bring this tree from its southern home to Beijing. I left it in its pot on the roof of the apartment complex that I had previously been renting. If the landlord did not throw it out, it should still be alive, because it rains frequently enough and the pot it was in was deep enough to retain moisture even at the hottest times of the year, but I haven't called to ask about it. The last I saw it was October of last year.

 

[fviljoen963]

wow ok, only now that you mentioned it saw you were in China

The reason I asked was that I collected two chinese elms and was wondering whether they'll make it or not, they've got roots but the one has a bit less than I'd like and the other has alot of pencil thick roots but few fines

the first I left overnight in water but it made this weird see through gel on all the cut sights- I planted it up anyway in fine compost which I immediately after found out wasnt a great idae as this bag wasnt as perfectly free draining like the others ... (this is the one with few roots)

so Ill just have to wait and see? because everywhere peoe are saying they dont know of collected C-elms and they dont know why more arent being collected
The irony is baffling haha

 

[daygan]

They could make it. I find that Chinese elms are pretty vigorous trees. I prefer non-organic, free draining substrate personally, but you may find something else that works well for yourself as a potting soil. Just keep them watered properly, receiving ample, natural sunlight, and give them some time, and you may find that they survive! The "gel" that you saw, so that you know, is the sap that the tree produces and tends to "leak" from sites where the tree has been cut or damaged. It will, of course, produce much more sap if it is soaking in water, because it has a constant source from which to draw.