Chamaecypris pisifera “Boulevard”

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi all,
I am in a state of ‘don’t know’ versus “patience grasshopper” with this conifer. Probably my most advanced pre-Bonsai I own. My guess is it may be about 5 years old and found at the local nursery looking very tired and hungry.
I have repotted this tree into a 7 litre nursery pot, cutting the badly root bound roots off. It has hardly complained since and its colorful-ness has returned.
As for styling, I am learning to wire, create pads, and form branches and an apex.
I am starting this thread to get a load of critique sent my way so I can get a feel of how to move forward. The 3 photos are taken of front,back and from above. Also tree is approx 2 foot ( 24 inches?) from nebari.

The (obvious, my critique) flaws in this tree so far are how the 2nd trunk has formed- and how to go forward. Do I jin this and grow out branches to cover this empty section or leave alone. Also the crossing root in the front of the nebari and should I remove etc.
Thanks to all who help and critique this tree.
Charles

Chamaecypris pisifera “Boulevard”

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Jan 2, 2018

Front

Chamaecypris pisifera “Boulevard “

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Jan 2, 2018

Rear view

Chamaecypris pisifera “Boulevard “

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Jan 2, 2018

Top view, pleased with this view

Chamaecypris pisifera “Boulevard “

• KiwiPlantGuy
• Jan 2, 2018

Nebari not great

 

[sorce]

Cypress aren't supposed to backbud right?

Even if they do....I think them first branches wont work in a design.

But dont take em off.
I'd cut them little trunks low branches back to the first forks to see if they bud closer. Just as a test.
Keep them on to smooth out the trunk some....

But eventually....this close growth up here is where my tree would be.

Maybe a slight angle change....real slight...
Some subtle movement in the big trunk....real subtle
And a little attention and clean up to where they split. Just to allow good eye flow right up into the canopies.

Using what it offers fast....with a shot of creativity.
Sure the split is high....but the trunk sizes and heights are perfect. And I dont mind high splits.

Sorce

 

[petegreg]

I would use the most of the tree for now. I'd bend the first right branch down and more towards the viewer.

The left trunk...hmmm, one should be lower... That second branch bent across the trunk is at the same hight as the first right branch. I would jin the rest of the left trunk above that branch, straighten the branch to become a new leader and let it grow. Then some pruning of outer growth in summer...

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Cypress aren't supposed to backbud right?

Even if they do....I think them first branches wont work in a design.

But dont take em off.
I'd cut them little trunks low branches back to the first forks to see if they bud closer. Just as a test.
Keep them on to smooth out the trunk some....

But eventually....this close growth up here is where my tree would be.View attachment 172913

Maybe a slight angle change....real slight...
Some subtle movement in the big trunk....real subtle
And a little attention and clean up to where they split. Just to allow good eye flow right up into the canopies.

Using what it offers fast....with a shot of creativity.
Sure the split is high....but the trunk sizes and heights are perfect. And I dont mind high splits.

Sorce

Hi Sorce,
Thank you for your analysis and comments. You are correct that these don’t backbud very well ( or not at all).
So I now definitely see the bottom 2 left branches being a problem and I will address them.
Probably won’t quite take as much off as your virtual and go with @petegreg thoughts.
Charles

 

[petegreg]

Hi Sorce,
Thank you for your analysis and comments. You are correct that these don’t backbud very well ( or not at all).
So I now definitely see the bottom 2 left branches being a problem and I will address them.
Probably won’t quite take as much off as your virtual and go with @petegreg thoughts.
Charles

Charles, and you can also let both trunks growing (kind of sacrifice growth, when you clean lower branches of the top not to shade the new top) and form a new tops. It will help thicken the trunks, slowly with potted junipers, but I can see some thickening on my little trees and also will help create some taper.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Charles, and you can also let both trunks growing (kind of sacrifice growth, when you clean lower branches of the top not to shade the new top) and form a new tops. It will help thicken the trunks, slowly with potted junipers, but I can see some thickening on my little trees and also will help create some taper.

Hi petegreg,
Thank you for making comments on my thread. It has certainly given me a lot to think about.
I don’t think I was planning on reducing the height much, just learning how to improve the pads, correcting branch flaws and keeping the tree healthy.
As it is Summer here, do I need to wire some of the secondary growth on the pads? Or just thin the growth somewhat?
Charles

 

[sorce]

correcting branch flaws

Like all them flawed low ones!

Quite honestly, just because these "don't backbud" doesnt mean yours won't. Typically these trees have been heavily shaded on the interior, your branches have been exposed to sun so maybe you get closer buds.

I would still treat them low branches as tests for your keeper top. Even if you do end up keeping them, or ESPECIALLY if you end up keeping them, you'll need to cut em back to the first fork anyway.

The top should be drawing enough sap up to keep those branches viable no matter how much you cut off, (where are dem cypress pros?) so I'd go for it and wire them out.

Most important!
Please understand I'm not saying cut them branches off now. By all means leave them on for now.....

But....
This tree certainly reached this "inevitable scenario" same as JWI's tree.....https://bonsainut.com/posts/519368/

My opinion on The rules.....

Following the rules creates believable trees.
90% of the rules must be followed before one can hide a rule breaker within the beauty of the tree created by the rules.

3 strikes With these low branches.
No close foliage. (Plus 90% no backbuds)
Improper spacing/sizing.
Out of proportion with the trunk.

Fucked up thing is any of that could be hidden with a few closer branches.
But we, and especially YOU, with way more hort skills than I, can't go wasting time on something we already know is not likely to happen.
Where even if it does, we still have other flaws in them branches.

I'm ranting, forgive me. I want you to see that tree up there.

I always like to put an imaginary person with the tree, in order to gauge proportion, perspective.

This tree as is, and unfortunately, with what we know about it backbudding, for the long foreseen future, has me seeing a man this big.


That's @fredman , picking on him cuz he dont come play anymore! Lol!

This tree that I want you to see up there....
I cant make a good damn virtual, but if you can imagine a branching up yonder, which as far as I can see is NOTHING SHORT OF PERFECT. (first branch emerges from the small trunk, close foliage, proportionate or close enough, differing planes in all 3d directions) like this here Mach5 branching from an RMJ...

If you pop that apex on your tree up there....

DAMN!

That sexy, lean, subtle moving run up...
With that canopy and apex you Have ALL THE RIGHT STUFF GOING ON TO MAKE PERFECT!

Man becomes this big.

Or smaller! Yes thats still fredman!

In a small round drum or imperfect literate pot, or on a long thin slab depending on what the roots allow....

That's a pimp ass tree!

Its not only those low branches suck that says you should cut them, but the fact that everything you have going on up at the top is SO DAMN PERFECT!

At that point the only flaw or broken rule is that of the high split....and IMO...that's one of the stupidest rules there is! I think it has more to do with splits being ugly most of the time, U shaped or bulging, I think thats why the Japanese tend to keep splits at the soil line. 99% of the time it is more visually pleasing.

But your split, with a little cleanup, is nice. The trunks remain so nicely different sized as they run up....if you get the big trunk to move a little more in conjuncion with the small one....that should be the Feature on this tree.

Its not everyday you see two trunks so nicely different sized and flawless enough to make that run all the way up to that what will be very high apex....

But these trunks pull it off!
And you have Perfectness in those top branches to make a beautiful canopy.

Shit. I convinced myself of it enough to fall back on this @crust advice.
Don't cut them low branches at all!
Keep all this foliage to push roots with as severe a repot as them lost cypress pros suggest.
Leave em till this recovers....
And follow them cypress pros advice on how to keep that sexy apex from getting out of hand.

I wish someone would make that good virt.
But hell...
Even my child virts can be better than a good virtual using those low branches....
Even the best virt isnt going to make those low branches into a good tree!

See that thing Charles!
Your thumb is too green to be Green in Bonsai!

Sorce

 

[petegreg]

If the tree wasn't repotted in spring, if it's been growing well this season and if there's a need to thin foliage and wire, you can. I'm sure we're not talking about heavy bends. Then let it grow for the rest of season. There's no need to hurry. On the other hand I like how this tree grows naturally, its "naturally formed pads". If you thin pads, try to create open-palm like branch structure where higher branches and pads do not shade those lower.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Like all them flawed low ones!

Quite honestly, just because these "don't backbud" doesnt mean yours won't. Typically these trees have been heavily shaded on the interior, your branches have been exposed to sun so maybe you get closer buds.

I would still treat them low branches as tests for your keeper top. Even if you do end up keeping them, or ESPECIALLY if you end up keeping them, you'll need to cut em back to the first fork anyway.

The top should be drawing enough sap up to keep those branches viable no matter how much you cut off, (where are dem cypress pros?) so I'd go for it and wire them out.

Most important!
Please understand I'm not saying cut them branches off now. By all means leave them on for now.....

But....
This tree certainly reached this "inevitable scenario" same as JWI's tree.....https://bonsainut.com/posts/519368/

My opinion on The rules.....

Following the rules creates believable trees.
90% of the rules must be followed before one can hide a rule breaker within the beauty of the tree created by the rules.

3 strikes With these low branches.
No close foliage. (Plus 90% no backbuds)
Improper spacing/sizing.
Out of proportion with the trunk.

Fucked up thing is any of that could be hidden with a few closer branches.
But we, and especially YOU, with way more hort skills than I, can't go wasting time on something we already know is not likely to happen.
Where even if it does, we still have other flaws in them branches.

I'm ranting, forgive me. I want you to see that tree up there.

I always like to put an imaginary person with the tree, in order to gauge proportion, perspective.

This tree as is, and unfortunately, with what we know about it backbudding, for the long foreseen future, has me seeing a man this big.
View attachment 172940

That's @fredman , picking on him cuz he dont come play anymore! Lol!

This tree that I want you to see up there....
I cant make a good damn virtual, but if you can imagine a branching up yonder, which as far as I can see is NOTHING SHORT OF PERFECT. (first branch emerges from the small trunk, close foliage, proportionate or close enough, differing planes in all 3d directions) like this here Mach5 branching from an RMJ...View attachment 172941

If you pop that apex on your tree up there....

DAMN!

That sexy, lean, subtle moving run up...
With that canopy and apex you Have ALL THE RIGHT STUFF GOING ON TO MAKE PERFECT!

Man becomes this big.View attachment 172942

Or smaller! Yes thats still fredman!

In a small round drum or imperfect literate pot, or on a long thin slab depending on what the roots allow....

That's a pimp ass tree!

Its not only those low branches suck that says you should cut them, but the fact that everything you have going on up at the top is SO DAMN PERFECT!

At that point the only flaw or broken rule is that of the high split....and IMO...that's one of the stupidest rules there is! I think it has more to do with splits being ugly most of the time, U shaped or bulging, I think thats why the Japanese tend to keep splits at the soil line. 99% of the time it is more visually pleasing.

But your split, with a little cleanup, is nice. The trunks remain so nicely different sized as they run up....if you get the big trunk to move a little more in conjuncion with the small one....that should be the Feature on this tree.

Its not everyday you see two trunks so nicely different sized and flawless enough to make that run all the way up to that what will be very high apex....

But these trunks pull it off!
And you have Perfectness in those top branches to make a beautiful canopy.

Shit. I convinced myself of it enough to fall back on this @crust advice.
Don't cut them low branches at all!
Keep all this foliage to push roots with as severe a repot as them lost cypress pros suggest.
Leave em till this recovers....
And follow them cypress pros advice on how to keep that sexy apex from getting out of hand.

I wish someone would make that good virt.
But hell...
Even my child virts can be better than a good virtual using those low branches....
Even the best virt isnt going to make those low branches into a good tree!

See that thing Charles!
Your thumb is too green to be Green in Bonsai!

Sorce

Whew, you ok Sorce? I am tired from the reading lol.
Now to digest the book of wisdom and make this tree even better
Charles

 

[sorce]

Whew, you ok Sorce? I am tired from the reading lol.
Now to digest the book of wisdom and make this tree even better
Charles

Hehehe!

Something about understanding how these crusty (different crust) old vets get the way they are....

I hope I chose words and stroked your ego enough to help you move forward.

Sucks for me cuz it seems pretend, to stroke an ego, cuz I really dont feel you need it, but how to be nice? And not condescending?
(I usually reserve Ego Stroking for the Police so I don't get ticketed ....or shot!)

It's always easier when speaking with someone outside the states.
(We tend to cry and know it all already)

Its got a lot to do with the fact that finally, six years in, I found the key to horticultural success for me.

You got that part down, except for that thing we talked about back when, the utilizing it for bonsai purposes part...
Which as we see here....even I forgot about till I remembered you need that foliage to charge your repot!

But that's what this chatting does!
Exposes!
(So long as young American Panties arent getting bunched!)

This is what I mean By.....

"Ask all the questions till the answers start to reveal themselves"

What really needs to be done won't present itself until all the BS is sorted through.

Anyway.

Makes me wish more peiple were here commenting on this thread!

Did they forget SoHem is providing the action this time of year!?

I really love this material.
One of a kind offerings.

Sorce

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hehehe!

Something about understanding how these crusty (different crust) old vets get the way they are....

I hope I chose words and stroked your ego enough to help you move forward.

Sucks for me cuz it seems pretend, to stroke an ego, cuz I really dont feel you need it, but how to be nice? And not condescending?
(I usually reserve Ego Stroking for the Police so I don't get ticketed ....or shot!)

It's always easier when speaking with someone outside the states.
(We tend to cry and know it all already)

Its got a lot to do with the fact that finally, six years in, I found the key to horticultural success for me.

You got that part down, except for that thing we talked about back when, the utilizing it for bonsai purposes part...
Which as we see here....even I forgot about till I remembered you need that foliage to charge your repot!

But that's what this chatting does!
Exposes!
(So long as young American Panties arent getting bunched!)

This is what I mean By.....

"Ask all the questions till the answers start to reveal themselves"

What really needs to be done won't present itself until all the BS is sorted through.

Anyway.

Makes me wish more peiple were here commenting on this thread!

Did they forget SoHem is providing the action this time of year!?

I really love this material.
One of a kind offerings.

Sorce

Hi Sorce,

As you have stated I do have a green thumb and as Horticulture has been in my veins for soooo long I get stuck in my ways of thinking that these trees that I want to create a Bonsai from are ONLY GOOD AS LANDSCAPE TREES, and in pots they are, as I don’t have the artistic fingers practiced yet, OR I can’t FEEL the tree etc to “find the tree within”.
Inexperience I guess.

I am going to try a “reach out” and see if @Vance Wood or @Adair M would like to comment on this tree or “how to cultivate an artistic flair with little bonsai experience.

Knowing how to grow trees/shrubs in pots is something but growing Bonsai (even pre-Bonsai) is totally different. Or am I being too mean to myself.
Don’t worry about the “ego” stuff as more confidence and better trees will come from critique and suggestions ( most I won’t have considered yet)
Charles

 

[Adair M]

Can you take some more pictures? This time, get the camera taking the picture down so that it’s about level with the rim of the pot. It’s hard to really see what’s going on from a picture taken too high.

The problem(s) I see are: the split trunk looks like a slingshot. There’s not enough size difference down at the split to give a “mother/daughter” look. Plus, from the angle shown, the smaller trunk moves back towards the main trunk. Then moves away again.

The small trunk has this crossing branch that starts on the inside, then crosses over and goes left. And unfortunately, it’s at the same height as the branches on the other trunk!

Then, above that crossing branch, the small trunk doesn’t have any more branches for a long stretch.

Here’s what I would consider doing:

Try to make the Y wider. Specifically, move the small trunk so it’s growing more away from the tall one. See if the “crossing branch” can be turned up to become the new trunk line of the small tree. This would shorten it, give better taper, and the internodes will be shorter.

On the right, the first right branch kinda goes towards the back, and the second branch on the right comes more forward. And the second branch appears to be heavier ( may just be the wire making it look bigger). I would remove or Jin the lowest right branch.

I would keep the lowest left branch on the small trunk.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Can you take some more pictures? This time, get the camera taking the picture down so that it’s about level with the rim of the pot. It’s hard to really see what’s going on from a picture taken too high.

The problem(s) I see are: the split trunk looks like a slingshot. There’s not enough size difference down at the split to give a “mother/daughter” look. Plus, from the angle shown, the smaller trunk moves back towards the main trunk. Then moves away again.

The small trunk has this crossing branch that starts on the inside, then crosses over and goes left. And unfortunately, it’s at the same height as the branches on the other trunk!

Then, above that crossing branch, the small trunk doesn’t have any more branches for a long stretch.

Here’s what I would consider doing:

Try to make the Y wider. Specifically, move the small trunk so it’s growing more away from the tall one. See if the “crossing branch” can be turned up to become the new trunk line of the small tree. This would shorten it, give better taper, and the internodes will be shorter.

On the right, the first right branch kinda goes towards the back, and the second branch on the right comes more forward. And the second branch appears to be heavier ( may just be the wire making it look bigger). I would remove or Jin the lowest right branch.

I would keep the lowest left branch on the small trunk.

Hi Adair M,
Thank you for taking the time to drop in on my thread and for your critique.
I will attempt better photos toMorrow as raining and all now
Charles

 

[Adair M]

Hi Adair M,
Thank you for taking the time to drop in on my thread and for your critique.
I will attempt better photos toMorrow as raining and all now
Charles

That’s better than here! It’s freezing cold!

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

That’s better than here! It’s freezing cold!

Hi again,
So it was only raining a bit, keen and all that I grabbed a few photos. If these are no better or wrong angle etc, I might need coaching lol. Go the IPhone !!



It looks like it is back budding up top but after a couple of years it might not respond. Should I shorten a few branches to attempt the “back bud”?
Charles

 

[JudyB]

That’s better than here! It’s freezing cold!

Yeah, the weather for you guys is crazy right now, how are you faring?

 

[Shima]

Yep...they don't back bud. You've taken on a difficult tree to work with. Which is why we don't see many of them. It will be interesting to play with but...wish I could be less dark about it.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Yep...they don't back bud. You've taken on a difficult tree to work with. Which is why we don't see many of them. It will be interesting to play with but...wish I could be less dark about it.

Hi Shima,
Thank you for making comment, and yep fun journey ahead for this tree.
Maybe I start again with this one lol?

Charles

 

[Shima]

Maybe I start again with this one lol?

Or...you could just smack yourself with a hammer.

 

[JudyB]

https://www.amazon.com/Art-Natural-Bonsai-Replicating-Natures/dp/1402735243

This is a book by David Joyce that has a good chapter on his boulevard cypress. It's a nice looking tree, and he steps thru the development process of it. I actually really like this book overall, has some cool natural looking trees. I got one of these trees, and had it looking good for a few years, but I think I killed it somehow, been long enough that I don't remember..