Can I grow an A. palmatum (Japanese Maple) in my area ?

[ajm55555]

Seriously? No, bacteria has nothing to do with it. Dormancy in trees is certainly a combination of things, including the primary cause of shortening daylength.

I agree. In my experience even if you have relatively long mild periods in the middle of winter in temperate regions, deciduous trees will stay dormant and not be tricked by the temperature.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Seriously? No, bacteria has nothing to do with it. Dormancy in trees is certainly a combination of things, including the primary cause of shortening daylength.

The basics:
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/overwint.htm
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/dormancy.htm
https://www.evergreengardenworks.com/frzekill.htm

A quick search on google scholar and found some seasonal changes in epiphitic bacterial community structure (those bacteria that live on the surface of the leafs) and gene expression (e.g. their activity) (Rohde et al. 2007) as well as evidence that bacterial activity in leafs increases with increasing relative humidity (e.g. towards winter) (Leban 1988). So as I expected, there is at least some evidence that bacteria may also have a role in determining tree dormancy/leaf drop. I'm speculating now but it could be the case that seasonal changes in environmental conditions directly influence the activity of bacteria on trees, and thus indirectly affect tree dormancy.

Leban (1988): http://www.apsnet.org/publications/...ues/Documents/1988Articles/Phyto78n02_179.pdf
Rohde et al. (2007): http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/58/15-16/4047.long

 

[ajm55555]

If deciduous trees have evolved to adapt to hot and cold seasons, in evolutionary terms it wouldn't make sense for them to be tricked into believing a new season has started by one single factor, i.e. temperature, bacteria, etc. Their life is at stake. They must be really sure of what's going on and the best way is by checking multiple factors.

 

[0soyoung]

If deciduous trees have evolved to adapt to hot and cold seasons, in evolutionary terms it wouldn't make sense for them to be tricked into believing a new season has started by one single factor, i.e. temperature, bacteria, etc. Their life is at stake. They must be really sure of what's going on and the best way is by checking multiple factors.

Yes, that would make sense. Nevertheless, it isn't how things actually work.
On the other hand, these sensible connections maybe tell us some things about the natural conditions in which the species evolved.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

If deciduous trees have evolved to adapt to hot and cold seasons, in evolutionary terms it wouldn't make sense for them to be tricked into believing a new season has started by one single factor, i.e. temperature, bacteria, etc. Their life is at stake. They must be really sure of what's going on and the best way is by checking multiple factors.

Not sure. Have you never heard farmers complaining that their crops were flowering out of season? Trees can be fooled. Besides, most living organisms have evolved and adapted to a much colder Earth.

 

[ajm55555]

Not sure. Have you never heard farmers complaining that their crops were flowering out of season? Trees can be fooled. Besides, most living organisms have evolved and adapted to a much colder Earth.

Never heard of cherry trees blossoming in January. If they do flower out of season it's because the new season is close enough.
But I might not know the whole story. Which examples do you have of deciduous trees completely missing the right season?

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Never heard of cherry trees blossoming in January. If they do flower out of season it's because the new season is close enough.
But I might not know the whole story. Which examples do you have of deciduous trees completely missing the right season?

Don't know a about January, but blooming in the Fall appears to be quite common (trees blooming out of season) and this is true for cherry trees as well as others (e.g. pear).

 

[ajm55555]

OK, you're right. But blooming is not a life threatening activity, like growing leaves ;-)

 

[Gustavo Martins]

OK, you're right. But blooming is not a life threatening activity, like growing leaves ;-)

You're probably right here.

 

[miker]

If deciduous trees have evolved to adapt to hot and cold seasons, in evolutionary terms it wouldn't make sense for them to be tricked into believing a new season has started by one single factor, i.e. temperature, bacteria, etc. Their life is at stake. They must be really sure of what's going on and the best way is by checking multiple factors.

I understand what you are saying here. When, however, a tree that has experienced a typical length growing season is then placed in a cold(32-40F) and completely dark environment, this provides an effective approximate simulation of conditions temperate trees have adapted to during which they will go dormant.

 

[miker]

I agree. In my experience even if you have relatively long mild periods in the middle of winter in temperate regions, deciduous trees will stay dormant and not be tricked by the temperature.

This is where "chilling hours" come into play. A given temperate tree species( and even individuals with a species) has a certain number of chilling hours(temperatures 32-45F is the most common definition) that are required before a tree will be able to move on from dormancy. This and the fact that most of these same trees also require a certain amount of subsequent exposure to warm weather, tends to prevent release from dormancy during winter warm spells.

This is why we bonsai practitioners have to be so careful to keep dormant trees as cold as possible in February - April because by this time most trees in most cases have met their chilling requirements and a warm spell will actually cause a tree to initiate growth during a time when hard freezes are still likely.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

One year has passed. My palmatum grew very strongly this year and is starting to drop its leaves now. I was able to trim back 2-3 times during the growing season (last trimmed in August-September I think).

Lots of sun-scorched leaves though. I must find a better position for it next year. I'm thinking about putting it in a shaded area between the end May (its leaves still looked good in May this year) and end of September, and in a more sun-exposed position the remainder of the year. Let's see what happens next year.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Update: still alive and well sadly my kid broke the lower branch. Need to regrow it again

 

[Arlithrien]

Was growing some first year Acer palmatum seedlings under a grow light and moved them from 12in to 18-24in away from the light to prevent what I suspect is burning on some of the finer, less established seedlings.

Well about 2 weeks later the leaves started dropping on the hardier seedlings that grew closer to the light. I am not entirely sure this is due to the change in light or something else, but I quickly prepared them for the fridge and they've been in there for a few days now. Let's hope the leaf drop wasn't caused by a more serious problem.

 

[gopix]

Update: still alive and well sadly my kid broke the lower branch. Need to regrow it again
View attachment 295304

Hi update on your Jap maples pls!

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Hi update on your Jap maples pls!

It grew fine last year. The pot fell this winter and I lost a few key branches so I put it on a large pot to grow it back the buds are elongating at the moment. All good. Got a few more this winter: a Katsura, a deshojo, an Acer monspessulanum, and an Acer campestre.

 

[gopix]

It grew fine last year. The pot fell this winter and I lost a few key branches so I put it on a large pot to grow it back the buds are elongating at the moment. All good. Got a few more this winter: a Katsura, a deshojo, an Acer monspessulanum, and an Acer campestre.

A deshojo! Can I see pics of these please. Wait is your location's climate same as ours in Philippines?

 

[Gustavo Martins]

A deshojo! Can I see pics of these please. Wait is your location's climate same as ours in Philippines?

I can post a picture tomorrow, but they are still seedlings/cuttings.
I’m at the Azores, not the Philippines.

 

[Weaponman]

Hey,

Quite new to this whole bonsai thing, but recently bought (without doing a priori research) an A. palmatum from a local nursery.

I've now read that deciduous trees, in general, and A. palmatum in particular, may need a certain time of chill conditions in order to survive in the longer-term. However, I live in the Azores. I wasn't able to find the zone for my area but I am guessing it should be a 10 or 11. Basically we have only a few days per year, usually in February, when minimum temperatures get to 4-6 C. Most of the winter, minimum temperatures are around 10-12 C. Is this enough for A. palmatum?

I read that some people allow their trees to spend some time in the fridge to somehow mitigate the lack of cold. I don't think my wife would enjoy this idea that much

There is a local garden (that I know of) that grows one or two of these; as trees, not bonsai. Is this an indication that they can live here as bonsai as well? Many other deciduous trees can also be found here, but so do most tropicals which also thrive outside without any special care.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Gustavo

I’m in 9b and I’ve kept an acre palmatum alive for a few years, it lives in almost complete shade to avoid leaf scorch. Some varieties are more heat tolerant/ low cold unit tolerant than others, so see which varieties do well and are available in the area of southern Europe.

Hey,

Quite new to this whole bonsai thing, but recently bought (without doing a priori research) an A. palmatum from a local nursery.

I've now read that deciduous trees, in general, and A. palmatum in particular, may need a certain time of chill conditions in order to survive in the longer-term. However, I live in the Azores. I wasn't able to find the zone for my area but I am guessing it should be a 10 or 11. Basically we have only a few days per year, usually in February, when minimum temperatures get to 4-6 C. Most of the winter, minimum temperatures are around 10-12 C. Is this enough for A. palmatum?

I read that some people allow their trees to spend some time in the fridge to somehow mitigate the lack of cold. I don't think my wife would enjoy this idea that much

There is a local garden (that I know of) that grows one or two of these; as trees, not bonsai. Is this an indication that they can live here as bonsai as well? Many other deciduous trees can also be found here, but so do most tropicals which also thrive outside without any special care.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Gustavo

I have an orangeola jap maple in zone 9b which I keep in almost full shade. It’s possible, but likely won’t thrive. look for varieties that work for southern Europe .
Also try acer sinense maple which is a Chinese maple, more heat tolerant.

 

[ShadyStump]

A deshojo! Can I see pics of these please. Wait is your location's climate same as ours in Philippines?

A bit higher latitude, so more defined seasons than the Philippines, and somewhat colder in winter.
If you get temperatures that stay below 5C for long periods you should be able to keep maples.