building ramification

benw3790

benw3790

Shohin
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I'm a pretty quick learner and Ive already learned so much just from practice, books, internet, etc.. But I just can't grasp ramification no matter how many videos I watch, articles I read or pictures I look at. Its just so confusing to me. Buds, nodes, internodes, leaves. First node, first pair of keaves , dormant buds. Idk why I can't understand.. Its very frustrating. I see things like.. "Cut back to the first set of leaves" so in my mind I'm thinking cut the branch all the back to the very first set of leaves. Like there will be a branch and it will be cut back to just having two leaves on it. I know thats now what it means but thats how it sounds to me and all the words like nodes and buds and stuff is very confusing when every article or video are using different words. I know and internode is the space between two nodes. I know that you want them short as possible. But is a node and a bud the same thing? If I have two leaves growing off the end of a branch do I cut the bud in the very middle of them for ramification? Do the leaf stems turn into branches or fall of? IM SO CONFUSED! LOL I need someone to literally show me or explain it to me in elementary terms. I REALLY wanna get away from conifers so I bought a shohin trident maple last week and I want to know how to build ram on it this spring. Also I have a couple crepe myrtles. I'm worried I will have no idea on how to build my branches. But I do know the basics. Just need help on where and how to cut the branches for ramification. Thanks. Just wondering if anybody knows any super super detailed explanations or videos I can watch? Or if you have or wanna make a diagram of your own I could see?
 
Nodes (where buds will sprout) usually are located where the leaves are so they are loosely used interchangeably. By cutting back, you encourage budding on that branch so that one branch becomes 2. You cut both of them back and the 2 becomes 4, then 4 to 8, etc. (in perfect world). That is how you build ramification.

Check this thread of olive I built ramification that way...in just a few months.
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?10940-Olive-from-Lowe-s
 
Poink88 said:
Nodes (where buds will sprout) usually are located where the leaves are so they are loosely used interchangeably. By cutting back, you encourage budding on that branch so that one branch becomes 2. You cut both of them back and the 2 becomes 4, then 4 to 8, etc. (in perfect world). That is how you build ramification.

Check this thread of olive I built ramification that way...in just a few months.
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?10940-Olive-from-Lowe-s
Click to expand...

Yes ive read through that post when I first joined b nut! I can't believe how good it looked in such a short amount of time! Nice work! But what do I cut back to? Let's say I have a branch with 6 buds on it and like 5 leaves on it.. Do I cut the entire branch back to just 2 or 3 buds or back to the first or second internode?
 
benw3790 said:
Yes ive read through that post when I first joined b nut! I can't believe how good it looked in such a short amount of time! Nice work! But what do I cut back to? Let's say I have a branch with 6 buds on it and like 5 leaves on it.. Do I cut the entire branch back to just 2 or 3 buds or back to the first or second internode?
Click to expand...

Depends on the tree/plant and your goal.

Some plants have paired leaves, some are alternating, others come in 3s. Usually where you cut dictates where you want the main branch go. Note that the tip most bud will be the strongest (all things being equal). This is not a concern if you have paired leaves. Unless the node is damaged, the absence of a leaf is of no concern, it should still sprout.

Timing is also a factor you have to keep in mind, some plants only grow a certain time of the year. Good luck!
 
Well the tree I have in mind is a trident maple.. The very first branch still needs thickening so I'm just going to leave it alone. Its starting to get pretty long, has a lot of leaves on it. But some of the upper branches are about as thick as I need them but they are pretty short. Whoever had the tree before me, knew what they were doing. But when the growing season comes I want to be able to ramify those upper branches. If it will help answer my questions I can post vclose up pics of some branches and maybe get somebody to make a virt on where to cut them back to help build ram. Or maybe just tell me where.
 
Bonsai Focus magazine issues 6/2012 and 4/2013. They have deciduous tree maintenance and the other has a great explanation on clip and grow.Although you will have to put out money,I am positive you will gain from these two issues.
 
For what it's worth and perhaps a little off subject ramification is the single most significant subject that seperates good bonsai from mediocre bonsai. It is the subject of ramification that makes Pine bonsai so dificult and makes the trip from raw material to finished bonsai such a long trudge through the forest.
 
maybe post a photo so someone might give you specific advice and why.
Basically with Tridents, the leaves come out of the branch in pairs, that is opposed from each other. If you were to cut the branch beyond a set of leaves, eventually a branch would come out of where each leaf was. If you were to cut each of the two new branches, they would become 4, as Poink pointed out. Over simplified, that is how ramification is built. On maples, many people cut off one of the two leaves in an alternating way, which helps to create a zig-zag effect when it grows out.
 
Yo thanks for all the swift replies, as usual!! Ive checked out Walters article several times.. I really like that idea. And I guess to put it simple, let's say, I have a branch. It has grown out, there are two buds somewhere in the middle of the branch. I cut the branch back to those 2 buds and then a branch will grow out of each one, leaving me with two branches. Once those 2 branvhes have grown out to 2 or 3 internodes I cut both of those new branches back to 2 buds like before and end up with 4 branches and so on?? Does that make sense? And I have one branch that is about two inches long and then there are like 4 buds at the very tip and then a super long internode at the end making the branch even longer . I would cut that super long internode/branch put back to the 4 buds? I can tell where, who ever had it before me they had cut all the branches two where the branches now make a 'V' with buds in the middle of the 'V' the reason I didn't post pics is because they will be a sideways but I will try my best. Pics coming soon.
 
benw3790 said:
I see things like.. "Cut back to the first set of leaves" so in my mind I'm thinking cut the branch all the back to the very first set of leaves.
Click to expand...

It means exactly what you think it says. The procedure you have in quotes is referring to the pruning back of a new flush of growth- a branchlet?, maybe- on deciduous trees. When your trident pops next spring, the emerging leaves will soon develop into small branches (or branchlets)- this is what your pruning back to the first set of leaves.
 
Dav4 said:
It means exactly what you think it says. The procedure you have in quotes is referring to the pruning back of a new flush of growth- a branchlet?, maybe- on deciduous trees. When your trident pops next spring, the emerging leaves will soon develop into small branches (or branchlets)- this is what your pruning back to the first set of leaves.
Click to expand...

Thank you.. I wish it could be explained more simply I'm a dumby sometimes.. To me, it sounds like the very first set of leaves on the branch. Not the first set of leaves past a certain point. But I know that's what they actually mean and you've helped clear that up for me. Idk why but it's still notaking sense to me. I guess I'll have to take it to a meeting or have someone show me exactly where to cut on certain branches in person for me to really grasp it.. If someone could show me or explain it without the leaves. Do the leaf stems harden and turn into branching? Like the petioles or whatever. Or when the leaves fall do the stems come off as well? And here are some pics! If you notice some of the branches have been cut to make a V at the ends but some of the Vs are longer on one side. And the leaves don't look alternating to me.. And you'll see where new buds had came in where the cuts were made. Sorry for sounding so ignorant or frustrated! Lol I am really getting everything else but this! I'm just stuck for some reason.
 

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When the leaves fall the stems come off as well. If you look at the leaf, then travel down the stem back to the branch you will see a bud between the stem and the branch. That is where next years growth will come from. I you have a branch that has growth only on the end or has a long space between leaves, then typically one will cut back to the first set of leaves to encourage back-budding and increase ramification.
 
Ben I see you are in NC. Perhaps the best way to learn is to interact face-to-face with others. Please check out the Triangle Bonsai Society http://www.trianglebonsai.com/. Lots of new folks and also very experienced folks who are more than willing to help. Please note there is also a group down on the coast.

Keep the questions coming and good luck. (Remember the first thing to learn is to keep your trees alive.)
 
I can see you have a trident if I am not mistaken. Notice how some internodes (the first ones) are short and some are long. In bonsai we dont like long internodes...
There are some factors that can create long internodes and You have to be aware of those.
I will not go into details about that at this point...it is sufficient to know that you have to keep only short internodes, so You cut back to the bud after a short internode.
Tridents are prone to multiple shoots from a point. You will need to remove any shoots from the same point that are more than 2, and leave the ones that are in suitable direction.
There are more than one way to create ramification...see which one you like and decide.
 
Since long internodes are not ideal, would the first internode of the season be shorter if fertilizer was applied AFTER the second internode extended?

Hmm, then the second internode would grow in the same season having been fed... negating the technique.

But perhaps if the tree was almost finished this would still work since you'd be cutting back continuously to maintain the profile.

Or is the first internode going to be shorter no matter the feeding regimen?

Head hurts.

Good night.
 
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