Building a shohin black pine

[Eric Group]

In my opinion, it was weak because of poor soil and bad repotting technique (on my part). It's in the same pot and same part of the part of the bench as before.

Scott

What soil change did you make?

I have two older JBP- one in the ground, one in a pot and the one in the pot is a lighter green suddenly than the one in the ground... not dramatically so but it is noticeable to me. The one in a pot was only growing out for a couple years so when I took it out of the ground the roots were not terribly over grown and it went straight into a large training pot with Boone's mix. More than a 50% soil replacement but less than 100%... Just thinking about ways to maximize it's health next growing season. I may have been a little light on fertilizer this year but that is the only thing I can think of. It doesn't have any needle cast that I can see...

I also have a 2 yr old JRP I was growing out in the ground that just went from perfectly dark green to pretty much DEAD looking (all needles faded to light green, then yellow now turning brown!) in like one week
(While I was in Omaha for training... bet it got no water during that time but in the ground I would think it would have still been ok)! We had some freezing nights but not even below 30!! I have no idea what happened there... everything around it seems fine.

 

[Adair M]

Spider mites can do that.

 

[markyscott]

What soil change did you make?

I have two older JBP- one in the ground, one in a pot and the one in the pot is a lighter green suddenly than the one in the ground... not dramatically so but it is noticeable to me. The one in a pot was only growing out for a couple years so when I took it out of the ground the roots were not terribly over grown and it went straight into a large training pot with Boone's mix. More than a 50% soil replacement but less than 100%... Just thinking about ways to maximize it's health next growing season. I may have been a little light on fertilizer this year but that is the only thing I can think of. It doesn't have any needle cast that I can see...

I also have a 2 yr old JRP I was growing out in the ground that just went from perfectly dark green to pretty much DEAD looking (all needles faded to light green, then yellow now turning brown!) in like one week
(While I was in Omaha for training... bet it got no water during that time but in the ground I would think it would have still been ok)! We had some freezing nights but not even below 30!! I have no idea what happened there... everything around it seems fine.

Mike grew his pines in haydite and pine bark. I repotted the tree in 2008 but did a poor job of removing the old field soil in the core of the tree. I was far too cautious in doing this - it was before I knew about the 1/2 bare root technique. I think this caution nearly killed the tree. I used Mike's mix of haydite, pine bark with some turface. It struggled for a couple of years after that.

When I repotted, I left the back side alone, and bare rooted the front. I carefully removed all the old soil - including that old field soil in the core of the rootball. I filled in with APL and let it grow for two years. Then I repotted again, bare rooting the back side. It's health has improved steadily, as you see. I've not decandled every year (you can tell from the needle length before cleanup). I skipped this spring, for instance. I've tried to build an eye for assessing the trees health and vigor - if you have a strong healthy tree you can do a lot.

Scott

 

[markyscott]

Spider mites can do that.

Have you had problems with spider mites on black pine? I battle them constantly on shimpaku, but I don't think I've ever noticed them on JBP.

Scott

 

[petegreg]

Sorry - it's OK for now, but as the branches develop, some will have to be removed. Particularly on the right side of the tree. The left side is OK, but will have to be reduced as the lower branches (to be grafted) grow out.


Scott

No need to say sorry, thank you for response. Now it's a bit clearer.

 

[Adair M]

Have you had problems with spider mites on black pine? I battle them constantly on shimpaku, but I don't think I've ever noticed them on JBP.

Scott

I personally have not. But Boon said it can happen. One time when we went to Johnny's his JBP were looking poorly, and Boon tested one of the trees and found mites.

 

[Eric Group]

Spider mites can do that.

Definitely a possibility!- I sprayed everything on that bench a couple times recently just to make sure.., I had a Juni that was getting a little pale also, and wasn't sure if it was just starting to change due to winter or if there might be some little buggers attacking it so everybody in the area got a spray "just in case"... they will get a follow up when I get home tomorrow. Figured it is not a bad time of year to give them an all purpose "bugs and disease" spray to ward off mildew and stuff over the dormant period...

 

[markyscott]

Definitely a possibility!- I sprayed everything on that bench a couple times recently just to make sure.., I had a Juni that was getting a little pale also, and wasn't sure if it was just starting to change due to winter or if there might be some little buggers attacking it so everybody in the area got a spray "just in case"... they will get a follow up when I get home tomorrow. Figured it is not a bad time of year to give them an all purpose "bugs and disease" spray to ward off mildew and stuff over the dormant period...

I'm a big believer in dormant spraying, Eric. There are a couple of treatments you should consider, but it's a little early in the season to spray either right now. Here's a newsletter article I wrote some time ago that might help you:

"There are two classes of dormant chemicals in common application. They are both very useful, but have quite different purposes and the timing of application is important. The first class of dormant sprays are dormant oils that are specifically for insect control. The second class are dormant season fungicides such as lime sulfur that are primarily for disease control.

Dormant oil spraying is one of the most effective insect management tools we use to control overwintering insect populations. These are essentially highly refined petroleum products that are formulated to spray on trees and shrubs. The term "dormant" refers to the timing of application - they need to be used while the tree is dormant and before bud break in the late winter to early spring. Also, if the temperatures are too high or below freezing the application may not be effective - a 24 hour period of temperatures in the 40s and 50s is ideal. There are three types of insects that may be controlled with dormant oil: scale, mites, and aphids. Even if you don't see any insects, they are there and waiting for spring when they will make their presence known. Dormant oils work by coating the insect and blocking the spiracles (a small opening used for breathing). Some plants can be damaged by these oils so make sure to read the list carefully on the label. It should be applied as a fine mist, so buy a good quality sprayer and coat the entire tree including the trunk. Pay particular attention to thick barked trees as insects like to hide in the bark during the dormant season. You'll want to coat all of the nooks and crannies.

Lime sulfur spray is used to control fungal and bacterial diseases such as leaf curl, fire blight, scab, and anthracnose. The time to control such diseases is in the early spring when the buds are swelling as fungi come out of dormancy at the same time the plants do. If you spray too early in the season, the spores will still be dormant and the lime sulfur will not be effective. When applying both a dormant oil and a fungicide, you want to be careful about the timing of when you spray. There needs to be a space of about four weeks between the time you apply a dormant oil to control insects and the time you apply a fungicide for disease control. Since our Houston winters are only about 6-8 weeks long, that doesn't allow much time for dawdling. Apply your dormant oil as soon as the trees are dormant in about middle January and apply your lime sulfur when buds begin to swell between late February and early March. Don't bother if the buds have already opened as the fungus will have already entered the bud and the dormant spray will be quite ineffective at that point. As with dormant oil, you'll want to thoroughly coat the tree, getting in all of the nooks and crannies.

Reducing the overwintering population of pests and and diseases during the dormant season, means that you'll have far fewer problems in spring you'll need to try and control. That means healthier trees and less spraying of dangerous pesticides and fungicides during the growing season - a good thing - and a far lower impact on the beneficial insects we'd like to encourage in our garden. Remember that these are still chemicals, so use the appropriate protective gear for application and read the label thoroughly. But, by all means, use those wonderful January and February days to get a head start on spring pests and diseases."

Scott

 

[Eric Group]

I'm a big believer in dormant spraying, Eric. There are a couple of treatments you should consider, but it's a little early in the season to spray either right now. Here's a newsletter article I wrote some time ago that might help you:

"There are two classes of dormant chemicals in common application. They are both very useful, but have quite different purposes and the timing of application is important. The first class of dormant sprays are dormant oils that are specifically for insect control. The second class are dormant season fungicides such as lime sulfur that are primarily for disease control.

Dormant oil spraying is one of the most effective insect management tools we use to control overwintering insect populations. These are essentially highly refined petroleum products that are formulated to spray on trees and shrubs. The term "dormant" refers to the timing of application - they need to be used while the tree is dormant and before bud break in the late winter to early spring. Also, if the temperatures are too high or below freezing the application may not be effective - a 24 hour period of temperatures in the 40s and 50s is ideal. There are three types of insects that may be controlled with dormant oil: scale, mites, and aphids. Even if you don't see any insects, they are there and waiting for spring when they will make their presence known. Dormant oils work by coating the insect and blocking the spiracles (a small opening used for breathing). Some plants can be damaged by these oils so make sure to read the list carefully on the label. It should be applied as a fine mist, so buy a good quality sprayer and coat the entire tree including the trunk. Pay particular attention to thick barked trees as insects like to hide in the bark during the dormant season. You'll want to coat all of the nooks and crannies.

Lime sulfur spray is used to control fungal and bacterial diseases such as leaf curl, fire blight, scab, and anthracnose. The time to control such diseases is in the early spring when the buds are swelling as fungi come out of dormancy at the same time the plants do. If you spray too early in the season, the spores will still be dormant and the lime sulfur will not be effective. When applying both a dormant oil and a fungicide, you want to be careful about the timing of when you spray. There needs to be a space of about four weeks between the time you apply a dormant oil to control insects and the time you apply a fungicide for disease control. Since our Houston winters are only about 6-8 weeks long, that doesn't allow much time for dawdling. Apply your dormant oil as soon as the trees are dormant in about middle January and apply your lime sulfur when buds begin to swell between late February and early March. Don't bother if the buds have already opened as the fungus will have already entered the bud and the dormant spray will be quite ineffective at that point. As with dormant oil, you'll want to thoroughly coat the tree, getting in all of the nooks and crannies.

Reducing the overwintering population of pests and and diseases during the dormant season, means that you'll have far fewer problems in spring you'll need to try and control. That means healthier trees and less spraying of dangerous pesticides and fungicides during the growing season - a good thing - and a far lower impact on the beneficial insects we'd like to encourage in our garden. Remember that these are still chemicals, so use the appropriate protective gear for application and read the label thoroughly. But, by all means, use those wonderful January and February days to get a head start on spring pests and diseases."

Scott

Great info Scott thanks! I use oils almost year round- AS NEEDED- like Neem oil and comparables... that is what I have been spraying recently. I use LS during the height of winter usually just to "nuke" anything that might be thinking about popping up in Spring. For some trees that don't bloom (bees) and are commonly revaged by sap suckers I do systemics in Spring also.

 

[markyscott]

Great info Scott thanks! I use oils almost year round- AS NEEDED- like Neem oil and comparables... that is what I have been spraying recently. I use LS during the height of winter usually just to "nuke" anything that might be thinking about popping up in Spring. For some trees that don't bloom (bees) and are commonly revaged by sap suckers I do systemics in Spring also.

Thanks Eric - I use neem oil during the growing season as well. Has anyone here tried Azamax as a soil drench for junipers susceptible to spider mites?

S

 

[Grant Hamby]

Apparently my new JBP has needle cast. Should I begin treatment now or wait till January? Also, the tree is currently nestled next to a mugo and a whitebark, is there a good chance they will be infected?

 

[markyscott]

Apparently my new JBP has needle cast. Should I begin treatment now or wait till January? Also, the tree is currently nestled next to a mugo and a whitebark, is there a good chance they will be infected?

Hi Grant -

Here are my notes on needle cast:

Needle cast is a general term for a foliar disease on pine which causes small spots or lesions on needles, needle browning, death, and premature drop. It's the most commonly reported black pine disease. It's caused by a number of different fungi - Lophodermium, Mycospaerella, Ploioderma, or Rhozospaeria. Most needle cast infects young, newly formed needles in the late spring or early summer, but symptoms do not begin to develop until the following winter or early spring. The first symptoms are small yellow spots on needles less than one year old. The yellow spots turn brown and expand to form bands of discoloration about 1/4” wide that span the needle. The tips of the needles and tissue between multiple bands will then turn brown and die - base of the needle will often stay green.

Infected needles will begin to prematurely drop in the late spring and throughout the summer. On severely diseased trees, all needles from the previous season may be lost, leaving only new growth, severely weakening the tree. In later spring (April-May) stickily spores are produced on lesions from the previous year’s infections and are spread by wind or rain. Infection occurs during wet/cool weather. It does occur in Houston and you must spray to control it. The treatment is a spray of copper fungicide in the early spring before the buds begin to push (February) and spray with Daconil/Fungonil/Bravo monthly through the growing season.



So I'd say to go ahead and spray now with Daconil and again in early spring with copper before the buds begin to push.

Scott

 

[Anthony]

Yes Scott,

this would be year 29 /30 from seed and a gift from Mr.Y.Danbara of Japan.
We have since shifted from seed [ English and Japanese ] to cuttings [ via Ausbonsai ]

We can keep them Lush / Ramified, but have yet to find the correct month for needle size reduction.
Though we did manage to do so by accident.
Nothing is worth showing.
Sifu [ Adair ] has been helping out.

Our soil is simple 5 mm silica based gravel and aged compost, in porous pots.

Any idea as why our trunks stay red and on your side they are white ?
Good Day
Anthony

 

[markyscott]

Yes Scott,

this would be year 29 /30 from seed and a gift from Mr.Y.Danbara of Japan.
We have since shifted from seed [ English and Japanese ] to cuttings [ via Ausbonsai ]

We can keep them Lush / Ramified, but have yet to find the correct month for needle size reduction.
Though we did manage to do so by accident.
Nothing is worth showing.
Sifu [ Adair ] has been helping out.

Our soil is simple 5 mm silica based gravel and aged compost, in porous pots.

Any idea as why our trunks stay red and on your side they are white ?
Good Day
Anthony

I dunno Anthony. The range of colors I've seen are silvery-gray on immature bark maturing to a silvery-black or a deep blackish purple on mature trunks. But I think that there's a range in appearances - perhaps it's the variety of seedstock that you were given?

Scott

 

[Grant Hamby]

Hi Grant -

Here are my notes on needle cast:

Needle cast is a general term for a foliar disease on pine which causes small spots or lesions on needles, needle browning, death, and premature drop. It's the most commonly reported black pine disease. It's caused by a number of different fungi - Lophodermium, Mycospaerella, Ploioderma, or Rhozospaeria. Most needle cast infects young, newly formed needles in the late spring or early summer, but symptoms do not begin to develop until the following winter or early spring. The first symptoms are small yellow spots on needles less than one year old. The yellow spots turn brown and expand to form bands of discoloration about 1/4” wide that span the needle. The tips of the needles and tissue between multiple bands will then turn brown and die - base of the needle will often stay green.

Infected needles will begin to prematurely drop in the late spring and throughout the summer. On severely diseased trees, all needles from the previous season may be lost, leaving only new growth, severely weakening the tree. In later spring (April-May) stickily spores are produced on lesions from the previous year’s infections and are spread by wind or rain. Infection occurs during wet/cool weather. It does occur in Houston and you must spray to control it. The treatment is a spray of copper fungicide in the early spring before the buds begin to push (February) and spray with Daconil/Fungonil/Bravo monthly through the growing season.

View attachment 124262

So I'd say to go ahead and spray now with Daconil and again in early spring with copper before the buds begin to push.

Scott

Thanks for the info! I had some Daconil on hand, so I just finished the job! It's fast & easy when you only have 3 little pine trees, haha.

 

[markyscott]

Before and after needle pulling and thinning.

 

[markyscott]

Fall work. Before and after with two possible fronts.



S

 

[Marozia]

Scott, I just wanted to express my appreciation for such a wonderfully detailed progression. Your explanations of what you're doing -- and why! -- are so incredibly helpful to a wide-eyed newbie like myself. Thank you