Bud Selecting For Single Flush Pines

[mrcasey]

On two flush pines, buds are reduced to two in mid fall. Do I also do this with my single flush species? I'm specifically interested in Ko Ko No E jwp.

 

[0soyoung]

I cannot imagine why it matters.

With multi-flushing species one wants to wait until a time that removing a bud won't provoke more bud formation in that season - right?​

A single flushing species isn't going to make more buds after having set buds after this season's foliage has hardened. Any time is okay​

All this stuff really isn't all that confusing if you just think logically. Plus, branches are largely autonomous, which means you can try things out on select branches and see for yourself how it responds.

 

[leatherback]

A single flushing species isn't going to make more buds after having set buds after this season's foliage has hardened.

Really? Cool. Never realized this. Thx.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I knock the buds off of my EWP in late winter or early spring, it makes new buds in spring-summer.
I've had single flush pines make new buds over winter, especially after hard chops.

But terminal bud selection can be done at any point in fall or winter. My personal preference is early fall, allowing nice healing times and because the buds haven't been swelling that much yet, they leave a smaller mark.

 

[0soyoung]

I knock the buds off of my EWP in late winter or early spring, it makes new buds in spring-summer.
I've had single flush pines make new buds over winter, especially after hard chops.

But terminal bud selection can be done at any point in fall or winter. My personal preference is early fall, allowing nice healing times and because the buds haven't been swelling that much yet, they leave a smaller mark.

Indeed.
P. strobus (Eastern white pine = EWP) is NOT a single flush pine.
P. parviflora (Japanese white pine = JWP) IS a single flush pine in my experience.

Many times before I've posted my claim that p. strobus can be treated in the same fashion as JBP to produce shorter needle and internode lengths - only the timing of decandling is different. I've been most disappointed that doubters attributed this to my special zone 8 climate on an island surrounded by 50F salt water that is very similar to much of the UK and coastal Europe instead of my horticultural genius. But, alas, vancehanna, in inland California, independently discovered likewise and has applied to produce an EWP that understand to have been accepted to the (postponed) US National Exhibition.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Indeed.
P. strobus (Eastern white pine = EWP) is NOT a single flush pine.
P. parviflora (Japanese white pine = JWP) IS a single flush pine in my experience.

Many times before I've posted my claim that p. strobus can be treated in the same fashion as JBP to produce shorter needle and internode lengths - only the timing of decandling is different. I've been most disappointed that doubters attributed this to my special zone 8 climate on an island surrounded by 50F salt water that is very similar to much of the UK and coastal Europe instead of my horticultural genius. But, alas, vancehanna, in inland California, independently discovered likewise and has applied to produce an EWP that understand to have been accepted to the (postponed) US National Exhibition.

Let me start off with the fact that I don't doubt you at all. Or your findings for that matter.
Scots pine can be a double flush pine and mugo can be a triple/continuous flush pine in my back yard, depending on how I treat them. Cut those scots pine candles in june and they'll produce a second flush in july/august. Screw up a mugo and it'll flush continuously for 3-4 years. It all depends..
Since I cut those EWP buds in spring, technically the argument can be made that it's both a single flush as well as a double flush pine. On one hand, it only flushes once because I don't allow that first one pas the bud stage. On the other hand, it's a double flush because it produces buds that I remove and then produces new buds that I allow to grow. Schrodingers flush, something like that.

I do however consider scots pine and mugo, and EWP being single flush pines. In my backyard that is, with the way I treat them. Those are the single flush pines that I've seen producing buds over winter, on locations that have and haven't been touched/cut.
You just have a way with EWP that I consider to be horticultural genius stuff. I can't really copy the results you've had, and I've been trying for at least a year now. And that's perfectly fine with me! I got smaller needles and some back budding. That's something most EWP owners have a tough time getting.
I'm not even touching JWP and those are the most available and lowest priced pines in my area.. I don't like 'em one bit! Just like JBP, yuck!

 

[mrcasey]

Oso,

I appreciate your logical instincts and I agree with you in spirit, but I always suspect that a lot of assumptions from which I
think I'm reasoning are more than likely flawed. If my assumptions are wrong, logic won't save me. I guess that's why
experiments are useful and philosophers don't necessarily make good scientists.

C.

 

[0soyoung]

If my assumptions are wrong, logic won't save me.

You might loose a branch or an entire tree discovering that your assumptions were wrong - that is about all. But you will know and will then be able to move ahead with it in mind that you don't want to do that (which you assumed) with your next. I'm not saying that you should ignore any advice, but if you find it credible, you will experiment by applying it to your tree.

I just encourage you to not be afraid to try things yourself.
Don't sell yourself short.


Regarding philosophy, the core philosophical position of science is that it does not matter how elegant or beautiful the theory is, it is simply wrong if it doesn't agree with experiment.

 

[Adair M]

Indeed.
P. strobus (Eastern white pine = EWP) is NOT a single flush pine.
P. parviflora (Japanese white pine = JWP) IS a single flush pine in my experience.

Many times before I've posted my claim that p. strobus can be treated in the same fashion as JBP to produce shorter needle and internode lengths - only the timing of decandling is different. I've been most disappointed that doubters attributed this to my special zone 8 climate on an island surrounded by 50F salt water that is very similar to much of the UK and coastal Europe instead of my horticultural genius. But, alas, vancehanna, in inland California, independently discovered likewise and has applied to produce an EWP that understand to have been accepted to the (postponed) US National Exhibition.

I have a couple of JWP putting in a second flush of growth right now. I have seen “fall flushes” a couple times on some if my JWP. I dont decandle JWP. This second flush is from the terminal buds created by the spring flush.

It’s “possible” to decandle JWP like you can JBP. It “sometimes” works as intended, sometimes not. I’m not willing to risk it, and I have found that I can manage JWP without it.

 

[0soyoung]

I have a couple of JWP putting in a second flush of growth right now. I have seen “fall flushes” a couple times on some if my JWP. I dont decandle JWP. This second flush is from the terminal buds created by the spring flush.

It’s “possible” to decandle JWP like you can JBP. It “sometimes” works as intended, sometimes not. I’m not willing to risk it, and I have found that I can manage JWP without it.

Interesting. I haven't seen this on any of mine - either spontaneously or via my attempts to induce it. I've even had trouble with the 'standard' white pine technique of partially cutting back the newly hardened growth (needle sheaths fallen timing) resulting in a dead end. It might be climate related (analogous to my clime being so cool that I must decandle JBP in late May). It also might be cultivar related I suppose.

I'd be interested, of course, should you find out any more details. I've been lightly playing with one or more instances of young Aoi, Hagoromo, Azuma, Fukuzumi, Nasu-goyo, and Kokonoe cultivars (pretty much 'inside the box').

 

[Adair M]

Interesting. I haven't seen this on any of mine - either spontaneously or via my attempts to induce it. I've even had trouble with the 'standard' white pine technique of partially cutting back the newly hardened growth (needle sheaths fallen timing) resulting in a dead end. It might be climate related (analogous to my clime being so cool that I must decandle JBP in late May). It also might be cultivar related I suppose.

I'd be interested, of course, should you find out any more details. I've been lightly playing with one or more instances of young Aoi, Hagoromo, Azuma, Fukuzumi, Nasu-goyo, and Kokonoe cultivars (pretty much 'inside the box').

Here’s a pic of one of my JWP pushing out a second flush:



The new needles are just emerging from their sheaths. All the foliage you see was from last spring. The previous year’s growth yellowed and fell off a couple weeks ago.

 

[0soyoung]

So @Adair M, I'm guessing that your daily temperatures are generally 70-something F now. Mine are low 60-ish which shouldn't be significantly different in this regard. You've got lots of nice buds on that Kokonoe (?). I say this knowing that I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. Hmmm , I haven't seen that many on any of mine - I may need to supply a bit more nitrogen than I have been.

 

[0soyoung]

Let me start off with the fact that I don't doubt you at all. Or your findings for that matter.
Scots pine can be a double flush pine and mugo can be a triple/continuous flush pine in my back yard, depending on how I treat them. Cut those scots pine candles in june and they'll produce a second flush in july/august. Screw up a mugo and it'll flush continuously for 3-4 years. It all depends..
Since I cut those EWP buds in spring, technically the argument can be made that it's both a single flush as well as a double flush pine. On one hand, it only flushes once because I don't allow that first one pas the bud stage. On the other hand, it's a double flush because it produces buds that I remove and then produces new buds that I allow to grow. Schrodingers flush, something like that.

I do however consider scots pine and mugo, and EWP being single flush pines. In my backyard that is, with the way I treat them. Those are the single flush pines that I've seen producing buds over winter, on locations that have and haven't been touched/cut.
You just have a way with EWP that I consider to be horticultural genius stuff. I can't really copy the results you've had, and I've been trying for at least a year now. And that's perfectly fine with me! I got smaller needles and some back budding. That's something most EWP owners have a tough time getting.
I'm not even touching JWP and those are the most available and lowest priced pines in my area.. I don't like 'em one bit! Just like JBP, yuck!

I think this was an all around great post!


... back to your regular programming ...

 

[Adair M]

So @Adair M, I'm guessing that your daily temperatures are generally 70-something F now. Mine are low 60-ish which shouldn't be significantly different in this regard. You've got lots of nice buds on that Kokonoe (?). I say this knowing that I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. Hmmm , I haven't seen that many on any of mine - I may need to supply a bit more nitrogen than I have been.

It’s not a Kokonoe. I don’t know what cultivar it is, but it’s not Kokonoe. It’s whiter than my Kokonoe. However, my Kokonoe have done something similar in the past, just not this year!

Here’s a picture of it taken a week or so ago, before the second flush: