Bonsai Without Chemicals? 2020.

[Bnana]

That's 10% of the Amazon, it's known as terra preta.
But the stories are based on very little evidence.

 

[Anthony]

One to think about -

Fermented seed meal - decays to compost
Any animal / Bird find it attractive ?

Add on fish emulsion or seaweed - smells of food ?

So you maybe you are your own problem.

One our side, the birds live in the swamps, the island is
small, swamps are plentiful.
They can easily fly say 10 miles.
No humans to wipe out the predator birds.
So life remains much the same.

Though some birds do fight back - humming bird - kiskidee.

@sorce ,
Utube with a pinch of salt.
You would cry with the Oil Painting science.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[JoeR]

One to think about -

Fermented seed meal - decays to compost
Any animal / Bird find it attractive ?

Add on fish emulsion or seaweed - smells of food ?

So you maybe you are your own problem.

One our side, the birds live in the swamps, the island is
small, swamps are plentiful.
They can easily fly say 10 miles.
No humans to wipe out the predator birds.
So life remains much the same.

Though some birds do fight back - humming bird - kiskidee.

@sorce ,
Utube with a pinch of salt.
You would cry with the Oil Painting science.
Good Day
Anthony

I had to stop using fish emulsion because the dogs ate anything in reach that smelled like it, and a great dane/mastiff mix can reach pretty much everything

 

[Forsoothe!]

Man made as in say ancient farm land? Haven't seen that, interesting.

 

[Forsoothe!]

So no, the inverse is not true. There are pros and cons to each. My point was that attempting to grow trees outside of native ranges, or on the extremes of their tolerable ranges, will lead to a difficult time.

Your premise is silly on its face. Fewer hosts mean fewer opportunities for species-specific pests to live & breed. This is the study, but the article does not site my specific point. Using your own limited experience in your own limited area as a baseline is not science, it is anecdotal. Interesting, perhaps. Definitive, not in a million years.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Barro Colorado Island Study of the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute.

 

[JoeR]

Your premise is silly on its face. Fewer hosts mean fewer opportunities for species-specific pests to live & breed. This is the study, but the article does not site my specific point. Using your own limited experience in your own limited area as a baseline is not science, it is anecdotal. Interesting, perhaps. Definitive, not in a million years.

I feel like you're still missing my point. Growing trees that grow well in your climate, i.e. natives, will lead to the least frustration in growing. Trying to grow plants that push the boundaries of your climate is futile. Weak trees attract pests. There are numerous disease and pest resistant natives to chose from, but that is not universally applicable by any means. Yes there are some species specific native plant pests, but somehow these plants have continued to grow in their native ranges with them for a reason..

I tried to read the article but NYT requires a subscription. But for what its worth, cherry picking articles is alot like biased statistical manipulation. You can support relatively any argument with it. I never said my observations were scientific or definitive, it is absolutely anecdotal. I also said both cases are true; you said definitively that the inverse is true. Theres a quote... only a fool deals in absolutes... but in any case my friend, this is getting a little off topic.

 

[sorce]

this is getting a little off topic

Topic Schmopic! No worries.

It seems the trajectory of the numbers is heading into the same.

In 2030 it may be the same, but the difference will be the quality of the trees for us nonchemers will be balls out better.

Sorce

 

[JoeR]

trees will be balls out better.🕵

classic sorce post, my ginkgo kinda looks like that...

Speaking of chemicals, I just fertilized everything with miracle grow- how does that fit in with the scope of the thread? I use as little chems as I can mamage but inorganic fert is one that I find to be a must recently

 

[sorce]

scope

I was thinking about it a minute ago.

We utilize every combination of chem and nonchem there is.
WP uses chemferts but no or little pesticide.
Some folks use organic fert and spray always.
Some both some neither, etc.

It's clear that as far as health of trees go, everything works.

So we should move on to which is the easiest and least expensive.

For me, this lands in organic chem free, since you don't have to purchase anything.

Then all the benefits are just more beneficial.

Sorce

 

[JoeR]

I was thinking about it a minute ago.

We utilize every combination of chem and nonchem there is.
WP uses chemferts but no or little pesticide.
Some folks use organic fert and spray always.
Some both some neither, etc.

It's clear that as far as health of trees go, everything works.

So we should move on to which is the easiest and least expensive.

For me, this lands in organic chem free, since you don't have to purchase anything.

Then all the benefits are just more beneficial.

Sorce

You use only organic fertilizers? I know the Japanese largely do, but I was not seeing good results from this. Maybe brand or type.

I think all the different approaches work because each micro climate faces its own unique problems.

I have never had to use a pesticide on my trees. Occasionally I will get minor outbreaks of Japanese beetles and aphids, but have never had to use anything chemical to get rid of them. Maybe neem once or twice. Lucky, by many standards like m Frary and his insects/moles/whatever ate his winter trees.

However, fungus is a continuous battle here. Hot, humid, and rainy constantly in late spring through summer. Some in drier places dont have as much of an issue. The cure for existing infections can be either or both 1) putting the tree in a larger container and heavy fert and 2) systemics or sprays.

So far, option 1 has surprisingly worked wonders on a tree that I was constantly spraying. Thanks Smoke.

I'm beginning to believe that soil temperatures is a factor we do not give enough attention to. I stuck my finger in the soil of the above mentioned tree, that was in full sun and doing OK, not great, and it was too hot for my finger- subsequently way too hot for roots. Since then, the addition of a shade cloth and large, cool root zone has helped dramatically.

This is ultimately one of the reasons I think the tree is doing better. This goes back to a healthy tree wont have problems.

I can remember a fad that claimed you can grow tomatoes in hay bales. No soil just the bales. Same effect; decomposition of the bales was HOT. Very hot- the tomatoes died.


Easiest, least expensive method for me-
-Both inorganic and organic fertilizer. Best of both. Why? Microbial support from organic and plenty of NPK from inorganic.

-Inorganic soil, either with akadama or pine bark.
Why? Because overly saturated soils in my area create problems, like fungus or root rot. I also use a top dressing of fine akadama or sphagnum to keep the roots cool.

-Occasional systemics for stubborn infections, no sprays

 

[sorce]

beginning to believe that soil temperatures is a factor we do not give enough attention to. I

You're absolutely right. Like freaking engine coolant!

Sorce

 

[World Bonsai Police]

It's clear that as far as health of trees go, everything works.

So we should move on to which is the easiest and least expensive.

For me, this lands in organic chem free, since you don't have to purchase anything and everybody knows I'm cheap.

Then all the benefits are just more beneficial.

Sorce

You know how I hate to be picky, but I've been a serious gardener for 40 years and my principal interest is in exotic plants. I pride myself in having a dozen trees in my landscape that any visitor has never seen. I don't buy plants that don't have registered names because there is only so much room on my lot and I can't have one of everything, so I want only the best plants. This is not a "Cadillac or snob" thing, this is a "special interest" thing. Naturally, my bonsai follows the same path. Nothing pleases me more than presenting something that nobody else has seen. The rarer plants are rare for a reason: they are hard to grow and perish quickly. A lot of rare trees aren't worth the effort. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

 

[sorce]

"special interest" thing

I love that people do this.
They have 3 strikes for me since they are too expensive, rarely are "good starts" for me, and are usually more difficult to care for.

I'm still in stage one, hell, this is about year 10 and I'm only now potting things at the right time, and building confidence in my ability to care for something worth more than garbage.

I may end up with a few more difficult things, but it's a long way off!

Sorce

 

[JoeR]

You know how I hate to be picky, but I've been a serious gardener for 40 years and my principal interest is in exotic plants. I pride myself in having a dozen trees in my landscape that any visitor has never seen. I don't buy plants that don't have registered names because there is only so much room on my lot and I can't have one of everything, so I want only the best plants. This is not a "Cadillac or snob" thing, this is a "special interest" thing. Naturally, my bonsai follows the same path. Nothing pleases me more than presenting something that nobody else has seen. The rarer plants are rare for a reason: they are hard to grow and perish quickly. A lot of rare trees aren't worth the effort. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Id love to see some pics of these exotic plants. Especially any melastomes, if you grow them.

Thats also how my plant obsession started. When I was seven or so my parents bought me a mail order red venhs flytrap, and since then it has been all downhill. I wanted to collect everything rare, unique, mysterious- since then I have realised it is quite a cumbersome task.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Id love to see some pics of these exotic plants. Especially any melastomes, if you grow them.

Thats also how my plant obsession started. When I was seven or so my parents bought me a mail order red venus flytrap, and since then it has been all downhill. I wanted to collect everything rare, unique, mysterious- since then I have realized it is quite a cumbersome task.

I had to look up melastomes, which I have never heard of. Nothing new in that, which I love. My garden looked pretty good last year. You are doomed to evolve to the next stages of exotic. I began when I had to stumble on "new" in books, reading here and there. You are privy to the whole world. Somebody posts something exotic here, but common in tiny regions in every possible corner of the world, day after day. If you had told someone 20 years ago that that they could interface with Hort-interested people everywhere in the world, around the clock, and they would all speak English, they would have locked you up.

 

[JoeR]

I had to look up melastomes, which I have never heard of. Nothing new in that, which I love. My garden looked pretty good last year. You are doomed to evolve to the next stages of exotic. I began when I had to stumble on "new" in books, reading here and there. You are privy to the whole world. Somebody posts something exotic here, but common in tiny regions in every possible corner of the world, day after day. If you had told someone 20 years ago that that they could interface with Hort-interested people everywhere in the world, around the clock, and they would all speak English, they would have locked you up.

That is one of the most impressive, well manicured gardens I have seen here. I noticed you also had a trifoliate orange bonsai, dont see many of those. I imagine the greenhouse is equally as spectacular.

Although they are a large family, mostly tropical, the only reason I know of melastomes is my internship professor is a specialist in the field, Dr. Darin penneys. They are easy to ID with unique checkerboard leaf vein structure. There is a native species that grows here but it is not nearly as impressive as many of the tropical ones. Rhexia. Their flowers are killer, very morphologically diverse. Some are easily propagated from edible, blueberry like fruit. I imagine you would really enjoy adding some of these to your collection. Unfortunately, all of mine failed late last year. Slow growers from seed.

You're on spot, I often wonder where I would be without the internet. All my interests stem from the endless literature online, most of which would be impossible without. At least, advancement would have been much slower. I still prefer a good book though

Account Suspended

 

[Forsoothe!]

Post #36 is my small greenhouse. Special for me, but modest. It allows me to keep busy in winter, but faces WNW so, combined with cloudy Michigan winters keeps plants kind of alive, but not thriving.

Reading Dr.'s Intro page I see that as science advances, it's leaving me behind...

 

[Anthony]

White glazed pots, styro-tex pots - roots and heat and
burial in the earth with leaf covering-cold
Good Day
Anthony

 

[fredman]

I define chemicals (those that the gardener uses to "control pests") simply as something man created in a laboratory. A chemical or mix of chemicals with a unpronounceable name/s. A concoction of chemicals made for one purpose only...to kill. Some are labeled to target certain species...others has a broad range of "effectiveness". All has one thing in common...they have a much wider effect than the label states....to ALL biological beings.
I've always had the heaving shelves of chemicals in my garages wherever I stayed...until we had a huge family health scare. That led us to a "out the box thinking" physician that does "medicine" the right way...fix the cause of the illness, not treat the symptom of such illness with chemicals.
That set us on a educational path of looking differently at any manmade chemicals. We can't sidestep all, but we sure as hell try as hard we can to find a substitute....sometimes not easy to find, in this chemically ruled world, but we eventually mostly do. Here in NZ the focus is slowly shifting away from chemicals to the natural alternative...kitchen, bathroom, personal hygiene etc etc. All chemicals has an effect on us as biological beings. The world has moved towards chemicals, but deep down in our microscopic makeup our bodies are protesting against the chemicals. We just haven't evolved fast enough to be chemical beings.

Apologies, I digressed.
That also turned my bonsai journey onto it's head to. I got rid of EVERYTHING on that heaving shelve....and I still don't miss them...even for a second. If I have a pest, I learn as much I can about the reason it's there in the first place...and try to adapt to that reason. Not always easy...but in time things starts coming together. Natural means is my target of choice when I spray something. I'm constantly surprised how much I can control with a concoction I make from ingredients out the kitchen.
Fungi problems are different. My maples suffer every year mid summer onwards. They look sad...but what the hell they're still alive, and will smile again come spring. I'm in bonsai for the love of trees. Maples don't do well here because i've put them out their habitat in the first place. Keeping them alive by artificial means (spraying them full of chemicals) just don't sit well with me. If I loose a tree through a fungi..so be it. I will NOT spray a fungicide to "control one fungi" and kill off a host other... and any micorrhizal I so eagerly seek to have in my pots...Uh Uh !!!
So no I don't use chemicals. To be very clear, I don't hate chemicals. I just hate that I have to use it sometimes