MSU JBoots
Shohin
Thanks. I’ll likely go the sun drying route since I don’t think the wife will be keen on me using the oven especially if any pine bark is left in the mix. The only question I have is do you rinse with anything other than water?
Bonsai soil
- Thread starter Brent99
- Start date
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Only water.
btw: We use a tarp when drying outside. Handy. Got that idea from @leatherback
best
DSD sends
btw: We use a tarp when drying outside. Handy. Got that idea from @leatherback
best
DSD sends
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I don't do anything as elaborate as DSD.
When I repot, I set aside the cleaner portions of the soil. There is almost always 10 percent or so of soil with lots of roots or other detritus that isn't worth messing with.
I let it dry then I resift it and try to remove as much needles, roots, leaves, branches as I can if there are any still in the soil. Usually get a few random things that need to be picked out.
I prefer to leave it at least a year in a bucket, keeping it dry before reusing but sometimes I reuse it sooner.
Was thinking if you wanted to heat it, putting it in an aluminum pan and doing it on a BBQ grill that has a temperature monitor would work as well.and won't stink up the house. I might actually try that
Joe Dupre'
Omono
I would recommend "Walter Pall --about modern substrates for bonsai" on YouTube. I've used his soil mix and his growing methods for 9 years and they work very well.
MSU JBoots
Shohin
The grill is a great idea! Thanks for your response.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Something to keep in mind if you're using plain old potting soil with bonsai soil. Commercial potting soil is made to do mostly exactly the opposite of what bonsai soil is supposed to do. It is designed specifically to hold onto water and stay wet for a long time. Indoor houseplants need that kind of moisture retention because of arid indoor conditions and mostly inattentive care from plant owners.
Bonsai soil is supposed to drain and release water from porous granular ingredients. Potting soil tends to defeat that goal. In bonsai mixes it clogs drainage and holds moisture against roots, which can cause all kinds of issues, particularly for conifers. It can be used with seedlings, as they don't have the root mass that relatively more mature trees do.
Bonsai soil is supposed to drain and release water from porous granular ingredients. Potting soil tends to defeat that goal. In bonsai mixes it clogs drainage and holds moisture against roots, which can cause all kinds of issues, particularly for conifers. It can be used with seedlings, as they don't have the root mass that relatively more mature trees do.
Maybe a "dumb" question but what would be the problem with mixing lava stone with normal potting soil? For example 50% lava stone with 50% potting soil or 75% lava stone with 25% potting soil? You'll get a good drainage because of the stones but still enough water with the potting soil or am I wrong? And a second "dumb" question... Why can't you just give your bonsai less water when you use potting soil to prevent rotting? For example once every 3 days until the ground is dry again (plus keeping it out of the rain etc.)
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Not a dumb question 
. Huge questions though. Here’s a general and obviously a bit brief answer.
Highly recommend you check out both the @markyscott resources mentioned earlier. That way one will start learning about how and why we fit the different media particles together to get the best results possible.
If one is merely growing out an early prebonsai tree in a pot. Straight premium potting soil will work fine, if it’s merely growing out.., and it’s properly watered. (Another challenge).
Lava will not help much in this situation. 80% pumice or perlite with 20% compost would.
An issue bonsai hobbyists all face when pot or ground growing is the growth characteristics in these media. Trees grow very fast in short order. Internodes are long, trunks like drumsticks… Ok if one is growing and intending to chop to design a beefy Trident Maple trunk. Not as good if one’s goal is more delicately tapered Japanese Maple trees.
After a short time tree growth accelerates in these medias, so pot/ground growers have to be vigilant, at the 2-3 year mark in our area things really speed up. In bonsai media (properly sized) growth tends to be more moderate and easier to manage
Another big issue is many hobbyists tend to favor developing a trees nebari early in development…. and big thick roots are often the result of growing in these medias.
Hobbyists don’t always develop the nebari at first, of course, but one has to at least get the basic architecture created early on. If not, a hobbyist faces the daunting task of rework in the form getting rid of ugly bulges and performing lots of root grafts.., sometimes with a not so satisfactory result…
….All of which is good fun, for certain. Yet most of us would rather do the job right first,.. Devrlop a decent nebari rather than rework so they can focus on taper, ramification and styling.
Hope this helps
Cheers
DSD sends
PS: Please double click your icon atop the page and the click account details, scroll down and add both your approximate location and USDA Cold Hardiness zone. You are starting to ask questions where this information will be needed by respondents.
. Huge questions though. Here’s a general and obviously a bit brief answer.Highly recommend you check out both the @markyscott resources mentioned earlier. That way one will start learning about how and why we fit the different media particles together to get the best results possible.
If one is merely growing out an early prebonsai tree in a pot. Straight premium potting soil will work fine, if it’s merely growing out.., and it’s properly watered. (Another challenge).
Lava will not help much in this situation. 80% pumice or perlite with 20% compost would.
An issue bonsai hobbyists all face when pot or ground growing is the growth characteristics in these media. Trees grow very fast in short order. Internodes are long, trunks like drumsticks… Ok if one is growing and intending to chop to design a beefy Trident Maple trunk. Not as good if one’s goal is more delicately tapered Japanese Maple trees.
After a short time tree growth accelerates in these medias, so pot/ground growers have to be vigilant, at the 2-3 year mark in our area things really speed up. In bonsai media (properly sized) growth tends to be more moderate and easier to manage
Another big issue is many hobbyists tend to favor developing a trees nebari early in development…. and big thick roots are often the result of growing in these medias.
Hobbyists don’t always develop the nebari at first, of course, but one has to at least get the basic architecture created early on. If not, a hobbyist faces the daunting task of rework in the form getting rid of ugly bulges and performing lots of root grafts.., sometimes with a not so satisfactory result…
….All of which is good fun, for certain. Yet most of us would rather do the job right first,.. Devrlop a decent nebari rather than rework so they can focus on taper, ramification and styling.
Hope this helps
Cheers
DSD sends
PS: Please double click your icon atop the page and the click account details, scroll down and add both your approximate location and USDA Cold Hardiness zone. You are starting to ask questions where this information will be needed by respondents.
Thanks a lot for your detailed answer, it helped a lot! But in short, you're telling me that it isn't a problem in the beginning to use soil. But that it won't help after a while because of the points mentioned above, right? But is it ok to just use a 75% lava rock and 25% soil mix after thé normal soil doesn't work or isn't that mixture complex enough? Thanks already!Not a dumb question
Highly recommend you check out both the @markyscott resources mentioned earlier. That way one will start learning about how and why we fit the different media particles together to get the best results possible.
If one is merely growing out an early prebonsai tree in a pot. Straight premium potting soil will work fine, if it’s merely growing out.., and it’s properly watered. (Another challenge).
Lava will not help much in this situation. 80% pumice or perlite with 20% compost would.
An issue bonsai hobbyists all face when pot or ground growing is the growth characteristics in these media. Trees grow very fast in short order. Internodes are long, trunks like drumsticks… Ok if one is growing and intending to chop to design a beefy Trident Maple trunk. Not as good if one’s goal is more delicately tapered Japanese Maple trees.
After a short time tree growth accelerates in these medias, so pot/ground growers have to be vigilant, at the 2-3 year mark in our area things really speed up. In bonsai media (properly sized) growth tends to be more moderate and easier to manage
Another big issue is many hobbyists tend to favor developing a trees nebari early in development…. and big thick roots are often the result of growing in these medias.
Hobbyists don’t always develop the nebari at first, of course, but one has to at least get the basic architecture created early on. If not, a hobbyist faces the daunting task of rework in the form getting rid of ugly bulges and performing lots of root grafts.., sometimes with a not so satisfactory result…
….All of which is good fun, for certain. Yet most of us would rather do the job right first,.. Devrlop a decent nebari rather than rework so they can focus on taper, ramification and styling.
Hope this helps
Cheers
DSD sends
PS: Please double click your icon atop the page and the click account details, scroll down and add both your approximate location and USDA Cold Hardiness zone. You are starting to ask questions where this information will be needed by respondents.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Hmm…
Putting potting soil in with lava defeats the purpose of using a bonsai component.
Why? ….as discussed above in this same thread,..when using bonsai components its pretty much all about keeping interstitial spaces clear to maintain the balance of H2O + O2 while flushing out the off gassed CO2 to get optimal controlled growth.
Imagine what would happen to these intestinal spaces if one tossed a premium soil blend in with lava. Exchange of CO2 with H20 and O2 would be severely compromised.
One would be best off to stick with a straight premium soil blend, not potting soil..
I do not advocate folks experimenting with media mixes unless they’re experienced. Many beginners, including myself at one time, have found this to be counter productive, wasting valuable stock trees, materials and time.
Best to stick with standard media mixes folks in your area use.
Yet in the end, your trees your choice.
Good Luck
DSD sends
Putting potting soil in with lava defeats the purpose of using a bonsai component.
Why? ….as discussed above in this same thread,..when using bonsai components its pretty much all about keeping interstitial spaces clear to maintain the balance of H2O + O2 while flushing out the off gassed CO2 to get optimal controlled growth.
Imagine what would happen to these intestinal spaces if one tossed a premium soil blend in with lava. Exchange of CO2 with H20 and O2 would be severely compromised.
One would be best off to stick with a straight premium soil blend, not potting soil..
I do not advocate folks experimenting with media mixes unless they’re experienced. Many beginners, including myself at one time, have found this to be counter productive, wasting valuable stock trees, materials and time.
Best to stick with standard media mixes folks in your area use.
Yet in the end, your trees your choice.
Good Luck
DSD sends
Thanks a lot for the useful information! It helped me a lot!
TrevorLarsen
Chumono
Great info thanks for taking the time to provide such detail it’s appreciated. I had one question what does this mean?
“ Only purchase 1/3 akadama. Went two years before we thought to get more”
Did you mean you only had to purchase 1/3 of the amount that you would need if you didn’t recycle?
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Yes. Actually it’s been more like 1/4 of the amount or less for our media. But the estimate given of 1/3 loss took into account the loads where we’d received media from folks that had mishandled their media.
As a general statement from our experience… As one’s collection progresses in age, the amount of media needed each year become less until it reaches a plateau. (Given a stable collection).
This is because media turnover for trees in development is quicker (for many reasons) vs trees in ramification as ramified trees normally stay in pot longer.
Keep in mind akadama isn’t for everyone. There are plenty of alternatives and the variables one faces can be amazingly complex.… or not… depending how far down the research rabbit hole one chooses to go. None of these has the same root scaling attribute, but some are close.
Again. Best to choose one basic blend of media for awhile and stick to it long enough to objectively view the results before switching.
cheers
DSD sends
Joe Dupre'
Omono
In my experience, much depends on the size of the pot and the stage the tree is in. GOOD potting soil is perfectly fine to grow a tree out in a deep, nursery-style pot. As you work the roots to get the tree into a shallower pot, then a higher percentage of inorganic substrate is called for. I live in a VERY wet climate, and I use 30-50 % organic to grow almost everything. 60 trees and 28 different species at present. I do tend to use a little deeper pot than most, though.
That's interesting, what kind of mix do you use? And is it possible to use a nursery-style pot for the first years?
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
One might want to read this post and the entire thread to get a better handle on the effective differences in organic vs inorganic soil vis a via water availability in defferent medias..
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/introductory-soil-physics.24970/page-17
cheers
DSD sends
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/introductory-soil-physics.24970/page-17
cheers
DSD sends
Personally, I only add potting soil to the water loving trees like BCs and DRs. Everything else really seems to benefit from the drainage and aeration of bonsai soil. Underwatering is rarely an issue for me - it's overwatering that I need to worry about and the bonsai soil makes overwatering much more difficult. I also like to have more control over the tree's water and fert than potting soil allows me. There are far better organic components than potting soil. All things being equal, it's coarse bonsai soil hands down for me. Of course, all things are not equal as bonsai soil costs much more than potting soil.
Just went on Amazon and Foxfarm is $24 for 12 quarts (3 gallons/ $8 per gallon). Bonsai Jack organic mix is $244 for 96 quarts (24 gallons/ $10 per gallon). I will plow through 24 gallons no problem at repotting and, for me, the extra $50 or so is worth it. Otherwise, I use Miracle Grow potting soil for my veggies with added perlite.
Just went on Amazon and Foxfarm is $24 for 12 quarts (3 gallons/ $8 per gallon). Bonsai Jack organic mix is $244 for 96 quarts (24 gallons/ $10 per gallon). I will plow through 24 gallons no problem at repotting and, for me, the extra $50 or so is worth it. Otherwise, I use Miracle Grow potting soil for my veggies with added perlite.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Just for information.
80% of Bonsai Jack organic media can be recycled. Just add appropriate size pine back after sifting… and BioChar if it is in the recipe.
That’s a savings of 195.00 / 24 gallons using your data.
cheers
DSD sends
Joe Dupre'
Omono
Kind of off-beat, but I use an eclectic mix of whatever I have on hand in my "big pile" for collected trees. In the big pile goes most everything..... old bonsai soil, leaf compost, smaller root trimmings, Napa fines etc. I'll throw in a quarter bag of soil conditioner and a few scoops of SafeTSorb if it needs it. I'll sift it a bit for newly collected trees. I use it as is for all my big bald cypress. For trees further along and in bonsai pots, I use a 1:1:2 of SafeTSorb, Napa 8822 and sifted small pine bark. I put extra SafeTSorb and Napa for a 60/40 mix a little heavy on the inorganics for the junipers. 28 species at present and everything seems to like it.
Similar threads
- Deleted member 53211
- General Discussion