Bonsai and Art

[Smoke]

He said "manipulation"...

 

[fredman]

Seriously though... if Bonsai is an art, then I'm screwed, cause my primary school teacher has been proven right about my artistic inclinations !!!

As I see it, for those that see themselves as artists... bonsai is an art. For those that don't...bonsai is a craft. Nothing but a horticultural craft... That's it

 

[Ivan Spasic]

There is something I read about art, in general, that can be applied to this subject, too. It's from an interview with one of my favorite writers, Douglas Adams: "... I think the idea of art kills creativity. ... If somebody wants to come along and say, "Oh, it's art," that's as may be. I don't really mind that much. But I think that's for other people to decide after the fact. It isn't what you should be aiming to do. There's nothing worse than sitting down to write a novel and saying, "Well, okay, I'm going to do something of high artistic worth." ... I think you get most of the most interesting work done in fields where people don't think they're doing art, but merely practicing a craft, and working as good craftsmen. ... I tend to get very suspicious of anything that thinks it's art while it's being created.” ― Douglas Adams

 

[brewmeister83]

Daniel Learns The Truth...

 

[michaelj]

In my experience, the opposite is true. You never hear cliches about "starving craftsmen." Artists, on the other hand....

 

[johng]

hmmm..not sure why I am jumping in here...but I have question Michael. Since there were thousands of portraits done prior to the Mona Lisa...is she original? can she really be considered art? Why is not her artist considered just a craftsman just as you are suggesting with bonsai?

 

[M. Frary]

He said "manipulation"...

I did,didn't I?

 

[MichaelS]

Everyone on this site, I believe, has the potential to do great work... Yes, some can want to call themselves artists if they want too, and yes, perhaps their work is not so good...but, really what does this hurt? Why, is there such outrage, by funny enough folks who don't call themselves artist, and don't claim to be doing art? Why, then would they care?

Ok, the way I see it (and it's probably no big deal in the end) is that I believe bonsai can be an art but usually is not simply due to the fact that the great majority of the trees I see are merely reproductions of someone else's tree which are usually reproductions themselves. I could really only place unique trees in this category. For example trees that are shaped by nature are not art objects but they can become so if the subsequent work on them brings out a unique image borne from the mind of those who work on it. That of course does not follow that it is good. It may be complete crap!
About everyone having the potential for great work, well I can't speak for everyone on this forum, but I have carried out many workshops now - as a matter of fact I did one this morning so this point is still fresh in my mind - and I can assure you that not everyone can do great work. Far from it. Simply put, there are people who can ''see'' and people who can't. And even after 35 years in the practice, they never ever will. No matter how much you repeat simple but important things to them, fundamental things like, ''this needs to be balanced somehow'', ''this section of branch conflicts with that'', ''this apex needs to be replaced because it's too heavy'' ''this tree is moving in two opposing directions'' etc etc etc etc. ....Nothing, just glazed eyes and the same level of work year after year. It's real ''I wanna bang my head against the wall'' stuff. Enthusiasm counts for nothing! It's just the way it is and I now accept that. I place 80% of people in that box and that is being conservative.

 

[MichaelS]

hmmm..not sure why I am jumping in here...but I have question Michael. Since there were thousands of portraits done prior to the Mona Lisa...is she original? can she really be considered art? Why is not her artist considered just a craftsman just as you are suggesting with bonsai?

To tell you the truth John, I now very little about the history of the Mona Lisa, It's just the first thing that jumped into my head. I pretty sure Leo did several takes on it???? If that is true, maybe it could be questioned, maybe it doesn't matter how many attempts were made. Portraiture is a funny one because it starts with representation. Some remains pure representation (like a photo) and others become interpretations.
My head hurt now, me go sleep..

 

[YukiShiro]

Thanks for the reply!
The reasoning for why I asked if you thought about what you posted before doing so... was because this whole thread is about trying to define, and put into a "Box" exactly what Bonsai is.

Is it an Art... or Not?

I did not create the thread... so I hold no personal responsibility for the thread, only my comments... So, I am not quite sure why you would direct your opinion at me, or to be frank... why you would post it in the first place seeing the thread is about exactly what you think should not be done... and i don't recall there being a third option proposed or suggested by either the OP, or any the posters so far... Perhaps, a better approach would of been to of posted your view in a direct comment, towards the OP, seeing here again... I did not post this thread.. that you feel that there should be this third option, that Bonsai should not be put into a box, and discuss your reasoning and logic behind such views... this is you opinion, you are entitled to it, Right? Instead of trying to now be the insulting prick that you are now being?

So you wouldn't post your opinion on a matter if you thought of something else that may come into play? What if you where to do that and some guy you don't know replied this to your opinion

Did you think about what you wrote before posting?

so sorry for being an insulting prick wanting you to watch what you type as well
I probably threw a huge spanner in the works with my suggested third option....

whatever...I have a program to write... oooo wait an art piece to create because I'm being super creative when i write financial programs

best regards
Herman