Bonsai aesthetic

[catfish chapstick]

I've been wondering, is there some mathematical way of describing tree aesthetic? Do trees look good when there is some fractal consideration? If one part doesn't relate to the whole does it look worse? Is it all just a matter of opinion or is there some universal law underlying all of it

If anyone is interested, I'd love to see examples. I read once that a bonsai artist should look at each branch as if it were its own tree and so on... Any thoughts?

 

[Poink88]

Google:
"fibonacci numbers in nature"
"fibonacci numbers in trees"
"fibonacci numbers in tree branches"

 

[catfish chapstick]

Google:

"fibonacci numbers in trees"
"fibonacci numbers in tree branches"

I know, that's my point. It can be applied to bonsai but it can't, or probably shouldn't be geometrically sound or it would look too artificial. Find a balance between geometry and variation? Or a ratio of geometry to chaos? A lot of bonsai don't look natural because of too little or too much geometry... I'm hoping for opinions on this.

 

[evmibo]

i enjoy thoughts like this (thanks for posting). everyone's opinions will probably vary a little bit. i prefer more of a "natural" look, and try to eliminate highly defined triangles when trying to achieve a design. just remember, it's art, there is no right answer - there are several ways to make a bonsai tree attractive.

 

[catfish chapstick]

i enjoy thoughts like this (thanks for posting). everyone's opinions will probably vary a little bit. i prefer more of a "natural" look, and try to eliminate highly defined triangles when trying to achieve a design. just remember, it's art, there is no right answer - there are several ways to make a bonsai tree attractive.

Right it depends on who you ask, that's why I'm asking. Thanks for sharing. I think I prefer a more chaotic design myself. The triangles are better when they are a bit loose aren't they?

 

[fourteener]

probably shouldn't be geometrically sound or it would look too artificial.

Maybe something looks to artificial because it's not geometrically sound?!

 

[Dan W.]

Have you read Andy's book? here: http://andyrutledge.com/book/index.html

He discusses several of these issues in the book.

 

[Dirty Nails]

Right it depends on who you ask, that's why I'm asking. Thanks for sharing. I think I prefer a more chaotic design myself. The triangles are better when they are a bit loose aren't they?

But regardless of the art form it must have it's basis in good design. Musicians must learn scales and chord theory before they can tackle choromatics and new variations. Painters must learn composition and balance before painting abstract. Jackson pollack is a good example - His pieces look like just splashed and splattered paint on a canvas but there is a basis of good design behind them. Once you learn the basics you can recognize the beauty and style behind the chaos, then execute it to share the feeling or emotion behind the piece.

 

[fourteener]

but so many virtuosos - whether it be art, music, writing etc. never took a formal lesson of any kind. maybe its best to let design flow from within.

It's all over the world of the arts...some are gifted at it better than others. Some need years of lessons to be average, some can pick a stringed instrument off of a shelf at a store and figure it out in ten minutes.

Some people interested in bonsai will struggle with aesthetics not matter how long they try, some figure it out like second nature. People who can explain the subtle nuances of why things look good try to help those who don't get it. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it's a forever struggle. People have to learn their limitations.

I have two nephews who play piano. One rigidly plays the notes on the page, one is a musician. Bonsai contains those two types of people as well. Both nephews have notes and a time signature, the product is vastly different.

 

[GrimLore]

The Mathematic Solution is no Math for someone like yourself who has trees, knows trees, and loves them. You will be more pleased if you do as you see proper and more often then not you will enjoy your own work.

 

[Mbpauley]

It's funny you posted this thread as I'm currently reading a book on phi. I've been interested in this value for some time, but until fairly recently I had not really considered how it might play into the design of bonsai.

As has already been mentioned, the golden ratio naturally presents itself in nature wherever you look, including trees. Trees in nature (untouched by humans) do not look artificial, and yet it may be this fundamental ratio that drives life itself. If one were to style and develop a tree with this in mind, I think that it must be more of a consistent consideration (in the back of your mind) than a "rule" or some such thing. Meaning, you can retain the natural look of a tree as you would style it anyway, but with each decision you could consider how you may emphasize this proportion. Otherwise, artificiality may very well be the outcome.

Since phi itself is self-symmetrical, I am inclined to think that even after incorporating phi in the tree's styling once or twice that it may naturally present itself on a smaller scale in other ways throughout its development.

 

[Mbpauley]

I imagine, also, that if you were to analyze the proportions among the various parts of your favorite trees (in person or in a photo), that you would likely find this ratio more abundantly and with greater complexity than in trees you do not find so appealing, even though the person designing the tree may never have had this specific ratio in mind in the first place.

 

[Dirty Nails]

I imagine, also, that if you were to analyze the proportions among the various parts of your favorite trees (in person or in a photo), that you would likely find this ratio more abundantly and with greater complexity than in trees you do not find so appealing, even though the person designing the tree may never have had this specific ratio in mind in the first place.

Well said, whether the artist is aware or not of the rules if the art is pleasing there are elements of good design.

Good topic...

 

[Poink88]

I know, that's my point. It can be applied to bonsai but it can't, or probably shouldn't be geometrically sound or it would look too artificial. Find a balance between geometry and variation? Or a ratio of geometry to chaos? A lot of bonsai don't look natural because of too little or too much geometry... I'm hoping for opinions on this.

Too much of everything is bad. Too much geometry, uniformity, order, predictability, etc. I think that is why Fibonacci works...it gives order to randomness.

A good design is like a journey, you want to know your destination but want scenic route with some surprises along the way (w/o getting lost).

I agree with Mbpauley and Dirty Nails.

 

[davetree]

Google "Fibonacci Foolishness" or "Fibonacci Flim Flam" and you will find out that plants or trees do not grow according to golden ratios or Fibonacci sequences. Sorry to spoil your fun.

 

[Poink88]

Google "Fibonacci Foolishness" or "Fibonacci Flim Flam" and you will find out that plants or trees do not grow according to golden ratios or Fibonacci sequences. Sorry to spoil your fun.

No fun spoiled. We are talking about aesthetics. No matter what is written by who (and I did not search what you recommended)...I believe Fibonacci and the golden ratio (which are related) works. If it doesn't work for you...that is fine too.

 

[davetree]

No fun spoiled. We are talking about aesthetics. No matter what is written by who (and I did not search what you recommended)...I believe Fibonacci and the golden ratio (which are related) works. If it doesn't work for you...that is fine too.

A math mystic !

 

[Poink88]

I imagine, also, that if you were to analyze the proportions among the various parts of your favorite trees (in person or in a photo), that you would likely find this ratio more abundantly and with greater complexity than in trees you do not find so appealing, even though the person designing the tree may never have had this specific ratio in mind in the first place.

I love it. Quoted for truth...couldn't have said it better myself. (probably not even half as good if I tried to compose it for days). Very well stated and worth repeating.

 

[october]

Well, like its been said many times. You learn the rules and formulas for bonsai first. Then when you have an understanding of them. You know when to apply them and when to do things differently.

There is nothing wrong with some deviation from guidelines to create nice bonsai. We need to use all knowledge as tools to create beautiful trees. However, one must know the rules to break the rules. Sort of like a surgeon that comes up with a new innovative surgical technique. He knew and fully understood surgery to be able to deviate beyond standard practice.

Rob

 

[davetree]

I imagine, also, that if you were to analyze the proportions among the various parts of your favorite trees (in person or in a photo), that you would likely find this ratio more abundantly and with greater complexity than in trees you do not find so appealing, even though the person designing the tree may never have had this specific ratio in mind in the first place.

Says who ? What do you base this on ? Every once in a while someone on this forum chimes in about Fibonacci, golden ratios, and phi. Do just a little research and read something written by a real mathematician. Anyone that says these ratios are present in sunflower heads and nautilus shells ( or trees ) is kidding themselves.