Bloodgood and coral bark maples

[Shibui]

I've often said I don't really like Bloodgood for bonsai because I can't get good structure or ramification.
These are a couple of trees I base my words on.

First up Bloodgood.
Opponents of grafted maples should take note of the trunk. Almost impossible to see the graft union on this tree but I know it's there because I made the graft around 12 years ago.


Just look at the internodes on this tree.

I know that excessive fert can make internodes longer than normal but I've tried almost everything with this tree to reduce internodes and leaf size but this appears to be the best I can do. It seems that Bloodgood just has large laves, long internodes and does not ramify well.

This is the best I've been able to manage in the way of structure and branching in the 12 years since starting this tree.



The only reason I've kept it this long is that Bloodgood has such a reputation as desirable.

After removing over thick branches and long internodes this is all I have for all those years of trying.

 

[Shibui]

The second tree is a coral bark. I am pretty sure this is a grafted tree as it has good bright red branches but I also grew some seedlings from seed collected from Coral bark. Quite a few seedlings have similar red stems but, of course, cannot be called Coral bark because seedlings will always have some genetic differences from the parents.

Similar story to the Bloodgood above. tree is around 12 years old. New shoots are vigorous and internodes are perpetually long so it is really difficult to develop decent structure and ramification.

Nice colored stems

Lower trunk. The strong, low branch has been left as a sacrifice to thicken the lower trunk but has not achieved much so far.

Long, thick internodes start right from the start of almost every shoot so they all need to be cut.
This one looks good from 2 different angles


I'll give this one another chance next growing season and try more trimming to see if I can get better growth to build structure better but so far, Coral bark not worth while as bonsai in my experience.

 

[Shibui]

In contrast, here's a Japanese maple grown from seed of the ordinary green leaf JM


This one is a few years younger than the previous trees at around 8-10 years.
Branch structure and ramification is much better and it grows masses of thin shoots with much shorter internodes which obviously makes it much easier to develop branching.

Unless someone can show me how to counteract the excessive internodes on Bloodgood and Coral bark I think I'll keep advising to stick to the plain seedlings for JM bonsai.

 

[rockm]

My experiences with bloodgood also. Not a great bonsai subject, but readily available and cheap. Cheap ones usually come with really really bad roots tangled, multilevel messes. The internode length is untamable --early and frequent pinching, defoliation tight roots, none of that will work, or at least hasn't for me...

I have also found that plain old JM green maple stock works the best for bonsai.

 

[LuZiKui]

This is a really great illustration of the difference between the different species of Maples, thank you for posting this!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Bloodgood is part of the "Matsurmure" section of Acer palmatum cultivars. The entire group is popular for landscaping, but horrible for bonsai. There are thousands of named cultivars of Japanese maples. I don't have a JM book at home, I borrowed one from our local public library, so I forget the exact numbers, but I believe the thousands of cultivars can be grouped into roughly 10 or so classifications. Several of these classes, there are genetic relationships, much as lineages in dog breeds. There is a class where "small seed, wild type" fits.

Most of the groups like the Matsumure are not good for bonsai. The "Ghost series" of JM like 'Sister Ghost', 'Grandma's Ghost', and other two toned leaf types like 'Olsen's Frosted Strawberry' are all large leaf types, and not good for bonsai.

THe "Linearlobium Types" are also difficult to use as bonsai, they have thread like leaves. 'Ito-no-Sode' and 'Fairy Hair' are two examples. Bamboo leaf types, some work for bonsai, most do not.

The "Atropurpureum" which has color similar to 'Bloodgood' but lacks the leaf size, can be okay for larger bonsai. Seed grown 'Atropurpureum' types can make good bonsai. Start a batch of 20 or more seedlings, choose the few that have the shortest internodes and smaller leaves.

THe coral barked types in general are difficult to work with, though because they are so beautiful, many try. Occasionally, if done as a 3 foot tall (meter plus) or larger specimen 'Sango Kaku' coral bark can work.

The "Princess" types of dwarf maples are very popular for bonsai, they have an unusual growth habit. Bill Valavanis was responsible for importing 'Koto Hime' and 'Kiyo Hime' for the first time into the USA about 40 years or more ago. He also can explain best how to prune and train the 'Hime' series of Japanese Maples. My favorite in this type of dwarf is 'Hime Shojo', it looks like 'Koto Hime' except its leaves are ''shojo" colored, the same color as 'Bloodgood'. Seriously, look for 'Hime Shojo' if you want a "bonsai'ed 'Bloodgood'.

Most of the Japanese Maple cultivars are not very good for bonsai, one must be very selective when trying to select named cultivars, as bonsai. You will have much better success if you plan on finished JM bonsai that are in the 1 meter to 1.5 meter tall range. Here the large leaves of the types normally used for landscaping are not as much of a problem. The rough barked JM, 'Arakawa' and 'Nishiki Gawa' truly shine when grown as meter tall specimens, since it is their bark that they are known for, shown as a meter or more tall tree, you will have some bark.

For smaller sized bonsai, only seed grown, selected for smaller leaves and internodes are really good for bonsai. Or go with the genetic dwarfs, the 'Hime' series.

Those are my thoughts.

I realize "down under" in Australia you have a very limited availability of named cultivars of Japanese maples due to import restrictions. @Shibui - since you are good at grafting, are the issues with importing refrigerated, dormant, scion wood, as difficult as importing trees with roots? Most import rules are complex due to soil born pathogens being the fear. Might be worth looking into. I know genus Hoya, can be shipped internationally as cuttings, as long as there are no roots for many countries. One spec of potting media, whole box is seized and destroyed. Don't know if this is a practical idea.

 

[crab apple]

Good info, thanks

 

[Mikecheck123]

Bloodgood is part of the "Matsurmure" section of Acer palmatum cultivars. The entire group is popular for landscaping, but horrible for bonsai. There are thousands of named cultivars of Japanese maples. I don't have a JM book at home, I borrowed one from our local public library, so I forget the exact numbers, but I believe the thousands of cultivars can be grouped into roughly 10 or so classifications. Several of these classes, there are genetic relationships, much as lineages in dog breeds. There is a class where "small seed, wild type" fits.

Most of the groups like the Matsumure are not good for bonsai. The "Ghost series" of JM like 'Sister Ghost', 'Grandma's Ghost', and other two toned leaf types like 'Olsen's Frosted Strawberry' are all large leaf types, and not good for bonsai.

THe "Linearlobium Types" are also difficult to use as bonsai, they have thread like leaves. 'Ito-no-Sode' and 'Fairy Hair' are two examples. Bamboo leaf types, some work for bonsai, most do not.

The "Atropurpureum" which has color similar to 'Bloodgood' but lacks the leaf size, can be okay for larger bonsai. Seed grown 'Atropurpureum' types can make good bonsai. Start a batch of 20 or more seedlings, choose the few that have the shortest internodes and smaller leaves.

THe coral barked types in general are difficult to work with, though because they are so beautiful, many try. Occasionally, if done as a 3 foot tall (meter plus) or larger specimen 'Sango Kaku' coral bark can work.

The "Princess" types of dwarf maples are very popular for bonsai, they have an unusual growth habit. Bill Valavanis was responsible for importing 'Koto Hime' and 'Kiyo Hime' for the first time into the USA about 40 years or more ago. He also can explain best how to prune and train the 'Hime' series of Japanese Maples. My favorite in this type of dwarf is 'Hime Shojo', it looks like 'Koto Hime' except its leaves are ''shojo" colored, the same color as 'Bloodgood'. Seriously, look for 'Hime Shojo' if you want a "bonsai'ed 'Bloodgood'.

Most of the Japanese Maple cultivars are not very good for bonsai, one must be very selective when trying to select named cultivars, as bonsai. You will have much better success if you plan on finished JM bonsai that are in the 1 meter to 1.5 meter tall range. Here the large leaves of the types normally used for landscaping are not as much of a problem. The rough barked JM, 'Arakawa' and 'Nishiki Gawa' truly shine when grown as meter tall specimens, since it is their bark that they are known for, shown as a meter or more tall tree, you will have some bark.

For smaller sized bonsai, only seed grown, selected for smaller leaves and internodes are really good for bonsai. Or go with the genetic dwarfs, the 'Hime' series.

Those are my thoughts.

I realize "down under" in Australia you have a very limited availability of named cultivars of Japanese maples due to import restrictions. @Shibui - since you are good at grafting, are the issues with importing refrigerated, dormant, scion wood, as difficult as importing trees with roots? Most import rules are complex due to soil born pathogens being the fear. Might be worth looking into. I know genus Hoya, can be shipped internationally as cuttings, as long as there are no roots for many countries. One spec of potting media, whole box is seized and destroyed. Don't know if this is a practical idea.

I played around with Coral Barks for years. Then I got one Sharp's pygmy and wondered what the heck I had been doing all that time without one!

With no offense to the OP, the branches of Coral Barks are simply ugly when used for bonsai.

But they're amazing landscape trees. Bulletproof, full sun proof, drought tolerant, fast growing. That's why they're ubiquitous in California. Even Burger King's have them!

 

[Shibui]

I realize "down under" in Australia you have a very limited availability of named cultivars of Japanese maples due to import restrictions. @Shibui - since you are good at grafting, are the issues with importing refrigerated, dormant, scion wood, as difficult as importing trees with roots? Most import rules are complex due to soil born pathogens being the fear. Might be worth looking into. I know genus Hoya, can be shipped internationally as cuttings, as long as there are no roots for many countries. One spec of potting media, whole box is seized and destroyed. Don't know if this is a practical idea.

I have not checked on import restrictions for scion wood. We do have a pretty extensive range of named JM available and it doesn't take long for one of the major commercial growers to get new varieties through so I wouldn't bother with all the hassle associated with importing new varieties.
Our quarantine does allow for import of live plants but it is expensive for individuals. Imported plants need to be bare rooted and fumigated to kill any live pests, then grown in quarantine for a full season to check for disease and any new pests hatching post fumigation before they're allowed out. Commercial growers can recoup the costs through bulk sales of the progeny.

I've put more energy into growing seed from many different varieties and then selecting any interesting, useful or different individuals from those. That has yielded some quite nice landscape trees so far.

I have Van Gelderens' Maples for Gardens in my bookshelf. It appears to be one of the major references for maples in general and has a very extensive section dealing with Acer palmatum, including the recognized sub-species and the huge range of varieties.

With no offense to the OP, the branches of Coral Barks are simply ugly when used for bonsai.

I think that's exactly what I was trying to point out so no offense taken.

 

[penumbra]

With no offense to the OP, the branches of Coral Barks are simply ugly when used for bonsai.

It was always just about my least favorite JM cultivar. I was given one and finally just threw it in the ground pretty far from the house and has developed into a landscape tree I rather fancy now.

 

[Paradox]

@Shibui
I definitely agree with you about Bloodgood.
I am unsure about Coral bark maples as I have had less experience with them but I have read the same things you mention about them not being good for bonsai.

However I did purchase this Coral Bark last year to give it a try because I liked the trunk on it and it seemed to have smaller leaves and internodes on new growth.


Since the tree is new to me, the only thing I have done to it so far is repot it and prune off some branches that I know wont be in the future design
Otherwise it hasnt had any bonsai work done to it at all
I took pictures of the end of one of the branches this morning:

Top of the branch and bottom of the branch to show the internodes better:



The internodes on the end of the branches are about 1 inch long. Still long for bonsai perhaps but it seems promising for once I can actually start to do ramification and branch structure work on the tree.
I might have gotten lucky with a plant that has shorter internodes and small leaves? Or I am going to run into the same problems most others seem to have with these.
Time will tell I suppose but I want to at least try with this one.

 

[Shibui]

I might have gotten lucky with a plant that has shorter internodes and small leaves? Or I am going to run into the same problems most others seem to have with these.

God luck with that one. I certainly hope you can manage the growth effectively but I expect you'll find the same problem. Whenever I prune the result is lots of strong shoots with long internodes. There should be no genetic difference between plants if they really are sangu kaku but it appears that seedlings from this one have an unusually high proportion of red stems and quite a few backyard growers sell seedlings showing red stems as coral bark which certainly muddies the waters as far as actual varieties go.

If anyone does find a way to take any of these varieties please let us all know.

 

[Srt8madness]

I think the only way to tell if it's coral bark is when the tree is in dormancy, as more (most) of the tree turns red, not just current years growth.

 

[Paradox]

God luck with that one. I certainly hope you can manage the growth effectively but I expect you'll find the same problem. Whenever I prune the result is lots of strong shoots with long internodes. There should be no genetic difference between plants if they really are sangu kaku but it appears that seedlings from this one have an unusually high proportion of red stems and quite a few backyard growers sell seedlings showing red stems as coral bark which certainly muddies the waters as far as actual varieties go.

If anyone does find a way to take any of these varieties please let us all know.

Yea I have the tree and its already started so Ill give it a shot.
Its still worth trying IMO.
Going to take a few years but we will see what happens.
Ill report back on it as I go

 

[rodeolthr]

As @Shibui said, the seedlings from Sango kaku have a high propensity for red stems. Of the seedlings I grow from mine, I find about 5% with the strong coral/red winter color. In working with those, I find the same issues....many buds eminating from nodes after cuts are made with strong growth and long internodes. Possibly more maintenance than I have time for.

 

[Shibui]

I think the only way to tell if it's coral bark is when the tree is in dormancy, as more (most) of the tree turns red, not just current years growth.

Not sure if this is a variety thing or related to age or other factors.
We have coral bark (purchased grafted) in the garden. Older parts of the trunk have thicker, grey bark. Every year more of the trunk is grey rather than red.
There's always the possibility that our tree is not the original coral bark due to seedlings having entered the commercial propagation chain.
I'd be interested to see photos of older coral bark maples with winter branch color.

 

[penumbra]

Not sure if this is a variety thing or related to age or other factors.
We have coral bark (purchased grafted) in the garden. Older parts of the trunk have thicker, grey bark. Every year more of the trunk is grey rather than red.
There's always the possibility that our tree is not the original coral bark due to seedlings having entered the commercial propagation chain.
I'd be interested to see photos of older coral bark maples with winter branch color.

It is normal for older bark to be gray.

 

[james]

The maple you have in garden pot is Sangu Kaku, Japanese name for coral bark, or pink color. These trees can make nice bonsai. Old bark will be light grey, new shoots pink, particularly in winter. Sangu Kaku of mine. I can send a picture in leaf in future.

 

[Ugo]

Hi!

Im far from being a pro but I changed my approach with my Bloodgood maple and I can see some good results this year in term of ramification, internodes lenght and leaves size.

I changed my method of pruning this tree and focus on balance energy for building secondary and tertiary ramification plus a way for the tree to spend energy at the right place.

In Spring I let the branches elongate to 6-8 leaves and then reduce the central stem to 4 leaves, out of theses 4 leaves Ill remove 2.
I apply this on the strongest parts of the tree.
For the rest I leave it untouched until 6-8 leaves emerge.
I did that last year and I can see a change in the quality of ramification and leaves size as the tree has more branches, spends more energy growing more leaves so they get smaller.
When growing amd cutting back to first node the tree will simply explode with long shoots everywhere, that I would remove and end up with the same exact tree the year after.
I also try not to fertilize too aggressively.

Here's this year results.
In autum, I will wire the tree, re-select branches to work with and Ill apply the same pruning technique again next Spring!

Sorry for the night pictures but I wanted to share the progession as this is a major step foward compared to the past 2 years.
Nothing spectacular, but I really wanted to try the method.

This tree was left for dead in a corner with very bad wire scars and no leaves so it was the best specimen to try techniques on and see if I could rebuild it.
Challenge accepted!

 

[Shibui]

This tree was left for dead in a corner with very bad wire scars and no leaves so it was the best specimen to try techniques on and see if I could rebuild it.
Challenge accepted!

Thanks for the ideas. It will take a while before you see real results but it is ideas like this shared that advance bonsai.

It is still a very open and sparse tree but using those ideas from scratch might make some difference for developing trees. I might even see if I can find the time to try some of that on a few of mine next spring.
Thanks again.