Bleeding Zelkova

[GerhardG]

Apologies to those that've seen this question at IBC, no help there, so let's hope some 'Nutter has advice:

I bought several trees at a nursery that's closing down, including 2 Zelkova serrata.
Choose the thickest 2, and only later noticed all was not well with one of them......few dead branches but not too serious, and I also noticed about 2m up the trunk stopped dead in a little stub.
Clearly not a new development since the canopy had developed around that to the point it was difficult to notice.

I was busy breaking out the dead branches, tried the dry stub at the tip of the trunk and it broke out!

THEN I saw what looked like tiny termites scurrying around in the hole.......

To explain my next actions, I don't have space for these trees where I rent, got some space elsewhere, and on that day my time was limited.....
I poured a tiny bit of undiluted systemic poison into the wound, and later sealed it with wood glue (cold glue) that I use on all cuts normally.

Please note middle of the winter here, trees still had some yellowed leaves on when I bought them, but they're full on dormant now.

Anyway, about a week later when next I saw the tree it has started bleeding sap from the wound, my sealer hadn't helped at all, and for the past 3 weeks it's been bleeding non-stop.
We're still 2 months+ away from Spring......

I'm pretty sure the termites are wiped out, but I'm really worried about the tree.

I've been considering chopping some of the trunk including that wound and about 3 branches (not serious), but since I've never experienced anything like this and Google wasn't much help, I was hoping somebody has some advice.


BTW, if it's unclear - these are not bonsai, but big nursery trees that will be air-layered into many bonsai starters.

Thanks
Gerhard

 

[sorce]

Pictures would help determine if it is only termites. Or if that, and maybe the sealed poison and moisture have caused something else.

Isolate it at least. The tree, then the problem.

And I would cut, it, out...start a layer, and take some cuttings, But thats me!

Sorce

 

[GerhardG]

Hi Score

I would've posted photos if I thought it would help - it's just a leafless tree with a dark brown sap running down the one side.....

Unfortunately way too early to start layers or take cuttings....in the middle of Winter here.

I'm about 80% sure the termites were wiped out, but that begs another question:

How far could termites get down in that trunk? Don't they just eat dead wood?


Termites are a practical unknown for me.....

Thanks

 

[sorce]

Nutters do respond better to photos. Don't know your level of experience, but sometimes things get overlooked. Seen it happen. Love to see it anyway.

I would start way too early.

We are still not convinced they were termites. Not that it matters. But it may.
I don't know much about them either.

So. I would still cut the s out of it. Likely out of pure curiosity, with a "why the hell not", singing in my head.

It sounds like the tree is trying to flush itself of ? Poison, dead bodies,? Glue

Sorce

 

[GerhardG]

Hi

It sounds like the tree is trying to flush itself of ? Poison, dead bodies,? Glue

I had the same thought, except for the glue - that I use extensively to seal cuts, better results with than without including Zelkova.

We are still not convinced they were termites.

Not like I used a magnifying glass, but if they weren't termites, they were little ants.....

Here's some pics:

 

[GrimLore]

Hi


I had the same thought, except for the glue - that I use extensively to seal cuts, better results with than without including Zelkova.


Not like I used a magnifying glass, but if they weren't termites, they were little ants.....

Here's some pics:

Have you considered taking a small propane torch to the large open wounds "GENTLY" to seal them and then applying a coat of wood glue or paste? It seems to me it would seal that way... The reason I mention that is it worked for me on a Plum tree a few years back - just be gentle with the torch.

Grimmy

 

[GerhardG]

Hi Grimmy

Thanks, that's something to try before I cut.

Funny this - that whitish blob on the close-up is all that's left of the glue, somehow it just never hardened & sealed

 

[GrimLore]

Hi Grimmy

Thanks, that's something to try before I cut.

Funny this - that whitish blob on the close-up is all that's left of the glue, somehow it just never hardened & sealed

I understand and that was because like with my Plum the sap flow was to fast and constant. I tried a few things for two maybe three days and the mini propane torch sealed it fast, then applied glue when it was still warm(not hot). Hope that helps

Grimmy

 

[sorce]

How goess it?

 

[GerhardG]

Hi Everybody

I did eventually burn and re-seal the wound.....didn't do much good....3 days later the sap was running again!

Anyway, good news is this tree was the first one to bud out, so about 2 more weeks the air layers start going on.
That part will be discarded obviously, can't wait to cut it open and get some idea of what going on in there....

 

[sunfighter]

Out of three factors here, termites (or ants), wood glue, and poison, the least harmful thing to your tree are the termites (or ants). poison is, well, just as it states, poison. Wood glue seals in mold and fungus along with the moisture they need to grow and spread. This also prevents wound wood from properly forming and sealing off the dead section of the tree (google CODIT). Insects are part of nature. They generally come and go in trees. What you need is compost to help the soil sustain the tree with what it needs. Then the tree can fight off whatever is attacking it and heal itself.

 

[Adair M]

Out of three factors here, termites (or ants), wood glue, and poison, the least harmful thing to your tree are the termites (or ants). poison is, well, just as it states, poison. Wood glue seals in mold and fungus along with the moisture they need to grow and spread. This also prevents wound wood from properly forming and sealing off the dead section of the tree (google CODIT). Insects are part of nature. They generally come and go in trees. What you need is compost to help the soil sustain the tree with what it needs. Then the tree can fight off whatever is attacking it and heal itself.

Interesting, you joined 45 minutes ago, and are posting nonsense on a 4 year old thread.

I’m all for accepting new people, you might want to start off with an introduction, posting your location, and a bit about your trees and experience.

That is, if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[sunfighter]

I was searching for info on Zelkova and google brought up this thread. I am a certified arborist of 24 years and just wanted to clear up some misconceptions in this thread so others who stumble across this don't try the same incorrect techniques when dealing with similar situations with their trees. Nonsense? You can see in the original poster's comments that 'glue' did not work.

 

[Adair M]

I was searching for info on Zelkova and google brought up this thread. I am a certified arborist of 24 years and just wanted to clear up some misconceptions in this thread so others who stumble across this don't try the same incorrect techniques when dealing with similar situations with their trees. Nonsense? You can see in the original poster's comments that 'glue' did not work.

Ah! A certified arborist! Wonderful!

You are trained to grow full sized trees in landscapes, and orchards, and for timber production. All worthy goals.

Bonsai are different. They’re grown for aesthetics. Yes, we use various types of cut pastes. Different species of trees respond differently to the various cut pastes available.

I don’t know what glue the original poster used, but on small cuts on Zelkova serratta, Elmer’s can be very effective. Oh, I know, you are going to cite a study that shows that sealing wounds has no effect or is even detrimental, but the species of tree and the type of wound sealant isn’t the same as what we use for bonsai.

I have 50 years of bonsai experience, so I have a bit of practical experience with small trees.

Now, I’m not saying that what the OP did was correct, but your statements that insects come and go is misleading as some can kill a tree if not treated. Ever heard of wooly agelidid? Killing all our hemlocks. Spider mites can kill pines and junipers. As can borers.

As for compost, I don’t use any in my bonsai. Growing in pots is not the same as growing in the ground. Trees don’t “need” compost. If they did, none of my trees would be alive! I use 100% inorganic soil.

As I said, I’m very welcome to new people to bonsai, but before posting (unless it’s a question) please make sure you know of what you are talking about.