Big bending

[Beng]

I picked up a vairegated juniper from Chikugo-en with plans to graft all itoigawa or kishu to it in the next 2 years. Here's a picture its been grown for bonsai its whole life for the purpose of grafting to shimpaku. That's a large 8 burner ducane grill its sitting on. The trunk of the tree is about 6-7 inches and one side is dead for carving and Shari.



My orginal plan was to make this a semi cascade. There are 2 small leaders growing from the area I plan to do a bunch of Jins on above the soil, however it would take years to grow them out for the apex.

After thinning out the foliage a bit I'm now thinking of bending the trunk back on itself and have the jins poking out through pads of foliage. The caveat is the trunk is about 2.5 inches thick where I'd do the bend. I've seen Ryan Neil and a few others saw triangles into trees to make bends like this. Frankly I don't feel comfortable doing that as this bend would support the entire foliage mass of the tree. I've seen the crazy contraptions Dario's built and am thinking of using something similar with a rebar attached to the main jin to pull the trunk in. When would be the best time of year to make such a large bend, late spring early summer?

Next spring I'll repot it in an oversized mica pot in a proper bonsai soil. Gary's already done the hard work and its in a nice shallow pot. It will be left to grow for a year and the following spring ill graft itoigawa or kishu to the whole tree. I have 2 years to complete the bend so I could do it slowly bit by bit. What do you all suggest, I think this bend is far too large for rafia and normal guy wire and wiring techniques.

I may try to do this bend under the eye of a pro as I've never bent anything bigger then about 1.5-2 inches.

 

[A Random User]

Beng,

2 1/2" is a lot to bend...

First off you are going to need to provide us with some better pics.
I wouldn't mind seeing your tree from a couple of sides, as well as some
close-ups of the trunk and where you would like to bend.

Second, can your tree be angled any in the planting ???
Even the slightest bit of a tilt to the right would make the distance you
are trying to achieve, that much closer...

Next... Sometimes when you are trying to do such a drastic bend with
thick material, it helps if one can reduce the thickness of the material...
The technique that you mentioned Ryan doing is one way... Another way
is through splitting and killing of a side of the trunk, creating a jin and
bending the reduced in size tunk.

Carving out a channel in the trunk sometimes is an option as well... this
process is similar to the technique that you saw Ryan do. You actually
remove material on the inside of the area to be bent, and the branch is bent
over on itself...

Regardless, you would be wise to use raffia, along with wiring, to prevent
any blow outs in the bending process...

 

[Beng]

Beng,

2 1/2" is a lot to bend...

First off you are going to need to provide us with some better pics.
I wouldn't mind seeing your tree from a couple of sides, as well as some
close-ups of the trunk and where you would like to bend.

Second, can your tree be angled any in the planting ???
Even the slightest bit of a tilt to the right would make the distance you
are trying to achieve, that much closer...

Next... Sometimes when you are trying to do such a drastic bend with
thick material, it helps if one can reduce the thickness of the material...
The technique that you mentioned Ryan doing is one way... Another way
is through splitting and killing of a side of the trunk, creating a jin and
bending the reduced in size tunk.

Carving out a channel in the trunk sometimes is an option as well... this
process is similar to the technique that you saw Ryan do. You actually
remove material on the inside of the area to be bent, and the branch is bent
over on itself...

Regardless, you would be wise to use raffia, along with wiring, to prevent
any blow outs in the bending process...

I don't think tilting it to the right is gonna fix it as the foliage will still be a little far from the main trunk. Plus I like the angle of the trunk at this position in fact i'd like to tilt it a little more to the left.

As for pictures... I suck at them. All I have now is my iphone. Hope to buy a camera around christmas. Moneys been a little tight except for money I spent on trees after the move. I can get some different angles though and cut the pot down lower so you can see the trunk. The pictures will still be pretty bad though... I could also do a video which has worked well to see trees in the past.

"Another way
is through splitting and killing of a side of the trunk, creating a jin and
bending the reduced in size trunk."

Do you have a picture of this method? I've never seen it done before.

 

[Poink88]

I haven't bent a branch that big but agree with Stacy on all points. If you've seen any of Kimura's live vein separation article...that would be the approach I'd take if I attempt this.

Good luck!

BTW, iPhone pics could be great esp if you get good lighting.

 

[bonsaibp]

Let me know the next time you come to the nursery and I'll show you how we've bent stuff that big-Just takes really good prep, strength and some time.

 

[Beng]

Let me know the next time you come to the nursery and I'll show you how we've bent stuff that big-Just takes really good prep, strength and some time.

Thanks Bob, i'll definitely take you up on that.

 

[Poink88]

Listen to this advise: The rest is beginners advising beginners. Some advise sounds good when you come at it from the point of view of knowing little; but nothing can replace advise coming from experience. I define experience as having done it and gotten away with it, not having seen Kimura do it or some other Master.

I forgot that rule AGAIN!!!! I am terribly sorry for responding.

 

[Poink88]

...and I thought I made that clear in my response several times. I did not pretend to have done it. No one here can raise the dead but bonsai is nowhere near that. Oh yeah, I gorgot that unlike someone posting about million hours working on bonsai, you are allowed to exaggerate.

Fair? How much caveat & disclaimer or clarification do you need? Check my sig, it is also there. You are very knowledgeable but to be FAIR, some of your contemporaries who are also doing this for decades may not be near as good as you.

I listen to what makes sense to me...not because it came from a "master" (or one who proclaims to be).

 

[Poink88]

You're coming from the position that I was specifically referring to you. Some times things that make sense are still wrong. Example: If the world was round then why wouldn't people fall off of it? Everybody is entitled to make exaggerations about things and I should be entitled to joke about them.

Only 2 people (me and Stacy) responded that you could be referring to. Is it just for Stacy then?

Your example is way wrong and doesn't make sense. LOL

 

[johng]

Just a thought...if you are going to be replacing the foliage anyhow...why not just graft the foliage in places more appropriate for the design you have in mind? It might take a little longer to develop believable branches but that could eliminate the need to bend the large branch. It could take longer for the large bend to hold than it would to grow new grafted foliage out??

As far as the bending goes it looks like there is deadwood on the first part of that branch...you will need to be very careful if that deadwood extends beyond that upward T branch.

John

 

[bonsaibp]

I have a couple of large juniper trunks I need to do some bending on I'll pm you when I'm goning to do them and if we can work out the timing you can help and see for yourself.

 

[october]

I have a couple of large juniper trunks I need to do some bending on I'll pm you when I'm goning to do them and if we can work out the timing you can help and see for yourself.

Would you mind taking some pics of the work? Things like befores and afters. I understand if you cannot get durings considering the heavy work. Always interested in seeing big bends done on trees. Thank you in advance.

Rob

 

[Beng]

I have a couple of large juniper trunks I need to do some bending on I'll pm you when I'm goning to do them and if we can work out the timing you can help and see for yourself.

Sounds great!

 

[A Random User]

I have a couple of large juniper trunks I need to do some bending on I'll pm you when I'm goning to do them and if we can work out the timing you can help and see for yourself.

I would agree that this is probably going to be the best route for you...
Besides... you will end up more than likely needing 2 people to do
the job anyways !!!

I also agree with Johng, that if you are wanting to graft, that this is another
way to make the transition...

 

[bonsaibp]

Would you mind taking some pics of the work? Things like befores and afters. I understand if you cannot get durings considering the heavy work. Always interested in seeing big bends done on trees. Thank you in advance.

Rob

I'll do my best.
Here is a link of a blog post about a big bend where there was a shari running the length of the trunk we bent. http://bonsaibpsbonsaiblog-bonsai.blogspot.com/2013_05_01_archive.html

 

[Beng]

I would agree that this is probably going to be the best route for you...
Besides... you will end up more than likely needing 2 people to do
the job anyways !!!

I also agree with Johng, that if you are wanting to graft, that this is another
way to make the transition...

The trunks already been grown for many many many years. What you can't see beneath that mass of foliage is the great trunkline and branches. I would hate to loose that and have to graft and grow out a new leader. I'm doing the grafting mainly because i prefer the small foliage of itoigawa and it's feathery look. I also really like Kishu's pads but I'm probably going to go with itoigawa for this tree.

 

[Beng]

I'll do my best.
Here is a link of a blog post about a big bend where there was a shari running the length of the trunk we bent. http://bonsaibpsbonsaiblog-bonsai.blogspot.com/2013_05_01_archive.html

Impressive, i'd say my trunk is an additional 1/3 larger then that one but I could be wrong. I plan to repot it this spring. It's been in the same soil for 10 years and needs a refresh, i'd also like to get it into my inorganic mix and put it in a mica pot. I was originally thinking the grafting portion of the project was 2 years out as the repot and bend would take a year or more.

Based on the blogpost you just linked to where you waited 2 years after the repot do you think I should wait a additional year after the repot to start the bend? I would assume doing both at the same time would be a bad idea, I usually stick to one insult a year rule.

Ben

 

[bonsaibp]

Impressive, i'd say my trunk is an additional 1/3 larger then that one but I could be wrong. I plan to repot it this spring. It's been in the same soil for 10 years and needs a refresh, i'd also like to get it into my inorganic mix and put it in a mica pot. I was originally thinking the grafting portion of the project was 2 years out as the repot and bend would take a year or more.

Based on the blogpost you just linked to where you waited 2 years after the repot do you think I should wait a additional year after the repot to start the bend? I would assume doing both at the same time would be a bad idea, I usually stick to one insult a year rule.

Ben

The reason for putting up the link was not so much because of the trunk size that was bent but the fact that even with a shari running the lenght of the trunk it could be bent if preped right and done slowly. The whole process took about three hours for the initial bends then I tightened the turnbuckle a turn or two at a time over a couple of weeks. A little more then a month later I transpalnted. It's growing just fine now.
I would either do the bend first, soon like the next month or so, then repot in the spring or repot and wait a year or two because doing the bend will definitely put some pressure on the roots. If its as rootbound as it sounds doing the bend won''t mess with the roots.
Keep in mind I sometimes do things in the less then optimal time because thats when I have time to do it.With the number of trees I have needing work sometimes I don't have the luxury of doing everything at the ideal time. Just have to be carefull with the aftercare. Except for one time when I broke a trunk I've never had a tree show adverse effects from severe bending.

 

[Lazylightningny]

I was at a mauro stenberg demo a few weeks ago a d he made a bend in a fairly thick branch. Besides arapping i raffia and electrical tape he said that he twists the branch to loosen the fibers before bending. Dont know if that would help for a thick trunk but i thought id throw that in.

 

[Poink88]

I was at a mauro stenberg demo a few weeks ago a d he made a bend in a fairly thick branch. Besides arapping i raffia and electrical tape he said that he twists the branch to loosen the fibers before bending. Dont know if that would help for a thick trunk but i thought id throw that in.

Branch splitting, flexing (massaging ), and twisting are some that I did to help ease some of my bends. As mentioned by bonsaibp, doing the bend over a course of time is also very helpful (I love turnbuckles). The stress gets redistributed over time and evens out...reducing the chance of sudden snapping/cracking.

For me, the key is rigging and finding good anchor points for the guy wires since I do not rely on coiled wires to do the heavy stuff.

I also learned that sometimes you have to cause damage to reduce chances/risk of greater damage later. Installing screws, eye bolts, etc. may in fact be better than padding. Have an open mind and use what ever applies best.

Lastly, expect the best but plan for the worst. Good luck!