Beech (Sylvatica) Hunt Advice

Aiki_Joker

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Don't mean to be a drag but you made three mistakes here.

First the tree has a decent nebari but that's about it. There is literally no taper to the trunk so that should be an indicator that this tree should be left where it was and moved onto the next. Granted this is a minor issue as it can be hollowed and taper added this way but that's going to take a long time before you can do this. Beech grow super slow and as bonsai even slower! So taper and thickness take a crazy amount of time compared to an elm or maple.

Second issue is you should have waited to collect the tree. Beech are usually the last to leaf out so there is more time allowed to collect these. If you still have frost in your area, then this tree should not be allowed to get below 40F degree's let alone 23F. Your just just exposing your tree to damage for frost damage and trunk dieback/ or death. There bark is very think and can damage ez'ly so this should be protected.

Third and most likely that biggest issue I see is two fold. When collecting beech you really need to be aware of the species and how difficult this species can be or ez if you know what to look for. When collecting beech you really need to have branches with buds on the tree/ or branches low already on the tree. New spring buds are formed the previous fall and are set ready to unfurl that coming spring. There are dormant buds BUT beech are not like other deciduous trees, they are the white pine of Deciduous tree's. The tree is going to have to really did into it's reserves to form new buds and open them up. It can be done the way you did this, but the rate of success with branches/buds on the tree and no branches/buds at all, are night and day. The second part of this is you just dramatically reduced your chances of success but chopping the tree again. They get there strength from there vascular system and you just reduced it by a lot and messed with the roots but cutting it again. It would have better to keep it tall and let the tree recover for 2 years then cut it down to height to a lower branches. That is just the nature of the beast that is beech.

I only mean to educate and apologies if this comes across as harsh. I have 7 beech and two of them are bigger then this tree, plus beech are one of my favorite species. Also if the tree does survive it will need to be protected from sunburn. They are under-story trees and can take full sun but ONLY after they are established and have a good root and canopy system.

Great advice @Giga and thanks for sharing. I thought it may need more sugar supplies and erred conservative. Will wait and see and leave the poor baastuud alone for a few years if it survives :0/.

Also great advice on the sun burn and artistic interest. In hind sight it was propably not one to pull but learned a lot already on my first dig so happy with that. It will make a good garden tree for my new place if all else fails :) Was surprised how fast this came out. I been researching digging trees for a while but 3 years away so no access. Mind you I had a good spade, I'm pretty strong and used levers.

This is situated in an orientation where evidence of scald is present elsewhere in this garden (on one of the ornamental apples and also another tree I can't I.D). Though it is sheltered in comparison to these trees, is there anything besides white paint that you can recommend? I doubt my old folks would be up for screens (even if they are temporary).
Many thanks.
 

Aiki_Joker

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@Giga - I have no disagreement with any of the content of your post. You did outline the mistakes. But I am going to share my thoughts as to what to do with the tree he already has sitting in front of him. Yes, I myself you not have collected this one. I would have collected a tree with low branches, and did the chop above the lowest branch or two. Actually, I'd shoot for at least 3 low branches, if they were all on different sides of the trunk, then chop just above those. But that ship has sailed. Deed is done.

@Aiki_Joker - Giga was telling the truth, this was a poor choice for a tree. Without any low buds, low branches, and with the fact that weather could drop below freezing, the chances of survival are already down to significantly less than 50:50. But there still is the odd chance it will survive. It will require several years to recover. Do move the tree to a location where it is shaded for the majority of the day, that will help.

If you collected this only a few days ago, cutting again, lower would not really be a separate trauma. Do seal the cut, it can be months before the tree actually produces a bud, an unsealed cut will allow too much moisture to escape. If more than a week has passed, do the second cut in 2 to 5 years. If done several years from now, never cut lower than a branch with buds. You may have to sequentially cut to a low branch, wait for buds to sprout lower & develop into branches that can support the roots, then chop again to the new lower branches. This could be a decade long process. My thought on recutting now is that the second lower chop would eliminate the decade of trying to fix having chopped too high. If the tree dies because the trauma of the second cut, or insufficient stored resources, the death of the tree will have saved you from a decade long exercise in frustration getting branches low enough on the tree to do anything with. If you cut lower now, and it lives, you are ''ahead'' by a 5 years to a decade of where you would be if you did not do a second chop. In the future, remember for beech, be sure to keep a low branch and second, the lower you are able to chop, the more time you will save yourself down the road. Keep the guideline that you want to chop lower than one third of the final height of the desired future tree.

It is far better to walk past a beech with no low branching. Where for most other species the lack of low branching is not as big an issue.

If it has been more than a week since collecting the tree, do not do the second chop. It would take chances of survival from poor to near zero.

I did have a chopped beech sit until middle of July without a single bud sprouting - actually I had several, 2 out of 3 just died even though I waited over a year for them. But one beech did sprout a couple weak buds, that developed into a weak branch, but it did live. So I would not put it on the ''burn pile'' until about 16 months months after you collected it. If it hasn't sprouted by August, it is very unlikely to ever sprout, but there are unverified rumors of trees of different species sprouting more than a year after collecting. Besides, if you wait 16 months before burning the stump, it will burn better.

If it does sprout, it will be weak. do not do any pruning or other bonsai technique for at least 2 years. Wait until you have good, healthy growth.

Hornbeam (carpinus) have a better chance of surviving this type of treatment, I have chopped Carpinus to just a short trunk and a nebari, and had reasonably good back budding. When I initially replied I had Carpinus in mind, as I had collected these more recently than my beech. Beech is definitely an exception to the ''normal'' behavior for the more common deciduous trees like elm, maple, hornbeam & hawthorn. In North America, it is fairly common, that if a forest has beech, scouting the lower depressions, more moist areas, of the same forest you are very likely to find hornbeam. Sometimes they are found together. Hornbeam is an easier tree to work with than beech, yet has similar bark and can be trained to similar styles. Keep your eye out.

Appreciated Leo. My thoughts on time invested and time saved as well. Though this will be a long project anyway (if both the tree and me survive! ?). Yes there are hornbeam here. I used to mistake the two. Easy now I know the double toothed leaf rule though.

I will post some thread graft stuff on both EU beech and EU hornbeam soon. I just completed some work yesterday and want to get it archived here for future updates soon. The last thing I need to do is get some additional pictures for the purpose of illustrating my arguments in the final post here.

Ah yes, one more thing, the final chop was approx 48hrs after the initial. Very slowly so as not to move much. Stuff always moves but was super careful. I would assume that being dormant there will be no new hair roots formed during this time to be disturbed also (?).
 

Aiki_Joker

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I would pass on collecting a beech when first starting out.
Like others have mentioned they're tempermental,slow growers.
I would suggest looking for elms to start your collecting efforts on.
You can build a decent tree from a stump like yours in 5 years,give or take.
They're much more rewarding right out of the shoot and will help you build confidence in what your trying to do.

Thanks M. Frary. I saw that elms are fast and forgiving. Their bark is awesome too :) I have never seen one here though :( Dutch Elm disease has been killing our Elms (Ulmus minor 'Atinia') since the 1920s. There were two major epidemics here. It is estimated that about 84% of the elms alive in the 70s are now dead. Hope to find one or even see one someday :0 ( Maybe I should think about buying one or planting some as forest. Thinking about planting black poplar too. They are also rare here.
 

Aiki_Joker

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FWIW, as Bobby L. pointed out, the nebari on this is not exactly great. It is impressive, but only on the original tree. Chop the trunk to bonsai size and the nebari becomes extremely coarse looking.

I wouldn't be that worried about it pushing new buds. It probably will, BUT, that's not really what you're after. Buds will pop on newly collected trees from sheer inertia--that's the first flush of growth on a lot of newly collected trees--It is the SECOND push of growth that will indicate the tree is going to make it. That second push can come from anywhere a week to two months out or even longer, as the tree tries to regrow functional roots.

This second flush is critical. If a tree fails to push it, it will probably not make it.

I learned that from Zach Smith--who advises "bagging" slower responding newly collected trees with translucent plastic bags (like shopping bags) when a tree shows signs of not recovering well. That bag slows transpiration and can give the chopped roots some slack in supporting the new leaves, as the roots begin growing.

Thanks for sharing the bagging technique. I wish I could be here to look after this tree when summer comes :( It may well dry out with the folks watering it :0/ Will he out of the country.

I read reports on the first leaf out being confusing. Will not be working on it at all for first few years for sure now. Most appreciated :)
 

Aiki_Joker

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One other point about collected beech. They have fooled me in the past with back budding and pretty strong growth the first year after collecting. Then I started some work on them, and they declined quickly in year two. If you get this one to survive, I would advise waiting and extra year or two before you start work on it.

Will do Brian. Many thanks :)
 

Potawatomi13

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Is possible to ground layer ramification onto roots. Also agree with letting grow for year freely. However if any branches wanted to save wire while still thin. Wood very hard and stiff very soon;). If making wire scars on branches or trunk will last forever as is smooth barked tree so be careful.
 

Maros

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I have to agree with Giga and Leo. Beech is very hard to collect. Without enough branches/buds low enough below the chop it has barely the chance of the survival. If you chop beech on spot in the forest it will most probably create a lot of new growth around the wound, but only if it is not shaded too much and has a decent amount of sunlight. Best chances are if you try to find a grazed tree by animals, on edges of the forests or meadows. They tend to be low and have a lot of buds on branches which is a must for collected beech. Even if you will be able to fulfill all the requirements tree after collecting tends to sprout in spring and die in first summer or next spring. If you are just starting I would recommend focussing on different species.
 

Aiki_Joker

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*********June Update ********
One bud is slowly breaking through the bark half way up the trunk! Hope it has the energy to push through.

Any advice as to whether it should be moved from its current dappled shaded position to sun? This bud has pushed on the more shaded side.

20180613_153451.jpg
20180613_153543.jpg
 

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leatherback

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Beech are sensitive to sunburn. I would not move it to full sun untill it has grown a head of leaves and/or you have given it time to get used to it e.g., over winter.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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The beeches i collected last winter, are doing fine here in the shade. They pop buds all over.
Copper beeches lose their copper color in the shade though.
 

Aiki_Joker

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Great advice guys. Most appreciated! Will keep it here then and hope for the best. Didn't know copper beech lose their colour in shade. Good to know. I will be planting some in the near future hopefully. This will help in the planning :)
 

M. Frary

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Anyone hear of beech bark fungus?
Around here they're all getting it.
I've cut down some screamers on the sale I'm on.
Every beech tree is infected.
I get to kill all of them.
 

Aiki_Joker

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Ha ha ha. Maybe a chance to get some material! The HMSO issued a bulletin sheet on disease in the early 90s. It includes some of the bark fungi. They found that insect infestation is a contributing factor. See attached.
 

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M. Frary

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Ha ha ha. Maybe a chance to get some material! The HMSO issued a bulletin sheet on disease in the early 90s. It includes some of the bark fungi. They found that insect infestation is a contributing factor. See attached.
It's because we don't get the cold we used to.
We're getting more and more pests and diseases as time goes by.
On a side note,on the wood sale I'm on there's one of the largest beech trees I've ever seen. It's probably 36 inches across the trunk. That's big for here. I've seen bigger in Massachussetts but those were protected city trees.
I'll need to cut it on 2 sides with the destroyer to get it down.20180616_093611.png
 

Aiki_Joker

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Old beech. Good luck and nice piece of kit! Make sure this beech is used well and not chipped. Makes great furniture and OK firewood :)
 

M. Frary

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Old beech. Good luck and nice piece of kit! Make sure this beech is used well and not chipped. Makes great furniture and OK firewood :)
They're all still alive so they go to the mill for lumber.
That is if they aren't hollow.
Hollow trees collapse and end up on top of the feller buncher.
 

Aiki_Joker

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~Ten nodes but only one shoot. Hoping more will pop. Plenty of dieback here in winter because there is no provision for shelter :( Ill have to pursue this with the folks this year! Any ideas?20180719_150313.jpg
 

BobbyLane

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looks weak, so im guessing when you collected it, you didnt get much root. a combo of it being in shade and a very weak root system resulted in failing nodes.
 

Aiki_Joker

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Indeed. Roots to the edge of the pot but all very thick and few hair roots. I'll have to try and coax it through the winter. Any tips for winter protection? I was thinking of wrapping the branch in something or moving it entirely. the trouble is the garage there is heated :0\
 

BobbyLane

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if it was mine, i wouldnt worry about it much, just leave it be. if it survives the winter i would put it in the ground for faster development from from march
i put a copper beech in the ground a couple days ago, it already stopped growing a few weeks ago, some beeches will only put out one flush and then sit for the rest of the season, putting it in the ground now while its shut down, will give it a head start next season and it should regain some vigour, i'd do the same with yours, as it will take forever to grow into something worthwhile at the rate its going
20180730_131331 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
20180730_132232 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
 
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