Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
Yep. My fastest growing BC seedling grew to 6ft tall in and a 2.5" base in one year.
BC question
- Thread starter bonsailevel:master
- Start date
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Can't load the link, website is blocked at work. Depends also on the amount of foliage of the tree, and if the reservoir gets direct sunlight. My trees are in direct sun light, but their foliage shade the saucers entirely all day long.
In the case of my trees, it's hard to say because our weather is extremely hot right now. 80 at 4 am, 100 by 12pm, and around 104 by 3pm. The saucer with a single three is 15" diameter and has a depth of 2", the water goes down to between 1 to 1 1/4"from when the system runs at 9am till 3pm. At 9am before the system runs it's about 1" of water.
So, with the little math I remember and the help of google, the saucer holds a little over 1.5 gal and the volume of the rootpouch is a little over .43 gal, so lets say 1 gal of water, and between evaporation and the tree the water goes down a little over 1/2 a gal between watering (6 hrs). So a little over a gal a day.
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
Some where in my BC posts, I showed pictures of BCs planted at the same time. Some were in water and some were on land. They were healthy and had about the same base size. The ones on land had larger trunks on top. The ones in water has smaller trunks. Since the bases were about the same, those grown in water have much better taper. That observation explained to me why the BC we buy at the nursery have poor taper. The BCs I have grown from seeds and kept in Anderson flat that sit on top of a flooded muddy muck of compost in a cement tub grew fast and had really good taper. I only stopped doing that because I have enough big BCs. (Psst @penumbra my Dao spoke to me that I have enough BCNot entirely accurate. Bald Cypress is a WETLAND tree. They are native to COASTAL PLAINS up and down the Eastern seaboard and Gulf Coast. That environment encompasses more than just swamps (which are defined as an area of low-lying, uncultivated ground where water collects; a bog or marsh.") There's a difference between standing water and a wetland. Wetland implies water, but not a constant presence, high water tables, seasonal flooding, etc.
Bald cypress grow submerged in water because they CAN not necessarily because they prefer it. As Leo said, they grow there because most other trees can't.
BC seeds won't, or have big problems, germinating underwater, for instance, as they wait for flooding waters to drain. That they optimally have to have their trunks in standing water is a myth. Study after study after study confirms that. Those studies also say that the first three years of growth for BC seedlings is best done in wet conditions, but seedlings have to grow fast enough to keep their heads above potential flood waters. In other words BC seedlings are programmed to grow very quickly. However, after that, standing water isn't necessary and in fact, can inhibit growth in some cases. Seedlings die if they are submerged over their tops. Growing BC in water also affects how they root and how they develop top growth. That growth is different and does different things. My BC which is grown in soggy soil in its container also throws roots through drain holes constantly.
Growing them in water works, as does NOT growing them in water. Yes, they like water A LOT, but creating a swamp to keep them in isn't necessary.
Bald Cypress: Care & Growing Guide | American Conifer Society
Several dwarf cultivars derived from bald cypress have become popular in collectors gardens in the past few years. Learn more.conifersociety.org
from the above link: "As one might surmise, the biomass produced by trees growing in a wet or moist condition versus those on higher land receiving water only via normal rain fall differ significantly. Landscape trees will have more limbs, and hence more leaves, whereas those exposed to water will grow fewer limbs and leaves. Bald cypress growing in wet conditions can become massive in time, but the growth rate of trees growing in a normal landscape will be greater."
)
Last edited:
Maiden69
Masterpiece
They are programmed to grow tall and lanky... they only develop the root flare that everybody wants in water. The growth in water impact the thickness of the base. If you provide enough water (what @Cajunrider is doing without flooding them) they will thicken up faster. If you just do your balance of water/oxygen and only keep the soil moist as most nurseries do, they will be sticks in a pot.
Completely agree with this, IF you don't manage the growth (which is what we do). Do you want a BC that represent the BC's in the swamps, or one that represent a BC on a hard landscape? I don't see anybody drooling over landscape grown BC's anywhere...
Old post from Scott about an article about BC study in water vs just soil. That explains it better.
Bald Cypress knees
FWIW, bald cypress grows IN water because it can, not necessarily because it wants to. Most serious bald cypress bonsai folks recommend NOT submerging the roots, because plunking a tree in a tub of water DOES NOT simulate swamp conditions. Water in swamps moves and circulates--albeit slowly, but...
Examples.... side by side. On the left were trunk chopped this March22, this pic is from last month, June 22. 3-4' tall trunk close to 2", ton of ramification, just waiting to be handled. On the left, same age seedling, no chop. 5-6' tall, sparse ramification, trunk around 2.5"
APR 2021... trees in pots no water. first season seedlings vs 2nd season seedling from nursery
AUG 21 - 1 season (slightly smaller than the 2 season)
AUG 21 - 2 season (after seeing the growth of the seedlings in water, I decided to move this one to water as well)
Let's compare sizes... errrr... My 1 season seedlings (this is their second) are between 1.75" and 2.5" at the base and probably less than 4' tall on the chop trees, 6' on the not chopped, my 3 season is around 4.5" at the base (probably more) and about 6' tall (this was grown the first season in a pot... big mistake, so in water for less than a year, AUG 22 will be 1 year)
Bald Cypress nursery around 5 yrs old... about 1.25" trunk and around 8ft stick...
Mateo’s bald cypress progression thread
I found this bald cypress on the discount rack at lowes for a whopping $24. I figured it would be fun to play with. After stuffing it in my Honda Accord and getting some funny looks in traffic it is home. I didn’t dig too deep but nebari is non existent on this tree as far as I can tell. It’s...
Another Nursery 4.5' and 1.5"diameter stick
Nursery Bald Cypress #1
Picked this guy up at a local nursery for a decent price. Considering how often BC are used as shade trees here in Texas, there's few to be found in my area that aren't too large or expensive. This guy is 4.5' tall and a 1 1/2" base. I'm going to repot into a 15"x12"x3" Anderson flat like tray...
~4yr old 5' and 2.5" at the base
Bald Cypress chop
The ~4 year old BC pictured below was grown from a 1/4" whip and is now 5' tall from the soil and 2 1/2" wide at the base. If my goal is to get the trunk to 4" wide and continue to improve the taper, should I chop it ~2' high this spring or let it continue to grow unchecked for another year or...
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
The stuff about root flare being developed only on constantly flooded trees is not really all that accurate. Flooding can induce root flare in wild trees and the amount can greatly shape WHAT KIND of flare develops. Trees in soils with moderately to low water content have MORE LATERAL flare than those that grow in deeper water. In deeper submerged conditions BC develop bottle-shaped flare.They are programmed to grow tall and lanky... they only develop the root flare that everybody wants in water. The growth in water impact the thickness of the base. If you provide enough water (what @Cajunrider is doing without flooding them) they will thicken up faster. If you just do your balance of water/oxygen and only keep the soil moist as most nurseries do, they will be sticks in a pot.
Completely agree with this, IF you don't manage the growth (which is what we do). Do you want a BC that represent the BC's in the swamps, or one that represent a BC on a hard landscape? I don't see anybody drooling over landscape grown BC's anywhere...
Old post from Scott about an article about BC study in water vs just soil. That explains it better.
Bald Cypress knees
FWIW, bald cypress grows IN water because it can, not necessarily because it wants to. Most serious bald cypress bonsai folks recommend NOT submerging the roots, because plunking a tree in a tub of water DOES NOT simulate swamp conditions. Water in swamps moves and circulates--albeit slowly, but...www.bonsainut.com
Examples.... side by side. On the left were trunk chopped this March22, this pic is from last month, June 22. 3-4' tall trunk close to 2", ton of ramification, just waiting to be handled. On the left, same age seedling, no chop. 5-6' tall, sparse ramification, trunk around 2.5"
View attachment 446958
APR 2021... trees in pots no water. first season seedlings vs 2nd season seedling from nursery
View attachment 446964
AUG 21 - 1 season (slightly smaller than the 2 season)
View attachment 446965
AUG 21 - 2 season (after seeing the growth of the seedlings in water, I decided to move this one to water as well)
View attachment 446966
Let's compare sizes... errrr... My 1 season seedlings (this is their second) are between 1.75" and 2.5" at the base and probably less than 4' tall on the chop trees, 6' on the not chopped, my 3 season is around 4.5" at the base (probably more) and about 6' tall (this was grown the first season in a pot... big mistake, so in water for less than a year, AUG 22 will be 1 year)
Bald Cypress nursery around 5 yrs old... about 1.25" trunk and around 8ft stick...
Mateo’s bald cypress progression thread
I found this bald cypress on the discount rack at lowes for a whopping $24. I figured it would be fun to play with. After stuffing it in my Honda Accord and getting some funny looks in traffic it is home. I didn’t dig too deep but nebari is non existent on this tree as far as I can tell. It’s...
Another Nursery 4.5' and 1.5"diameter stick
Nursery Bald Cypress #1
Picked this guy up at a local nursery for a decent price. Considering how often BC are used as shade trees here in Texas, there's few to be found in my area that aren't too large or expensive. This guy is 4.5' tall and a 1 1/2" base. I'm going to repot into a 15"x12"x3" Anderson flat like tray...
~4yr old 5' and 2.5" at the base
Bald Cypress chop
The ~4 year old BC pictured below was grown from a 1/4" whip and is now 5' tall from the soil and 2 1/2" wide at the base. If my goal is to get the trunk to 4" wide and continue to improve the taper, should I chop it ~2' high this spring or let it continue to grow unchecked for another year or...
"Where more fluctuations between exposure to water followed by air occur, the more the buttress swells"
And FWIW, if you're after decent drool-worthy root flare for a BC bonsai, you're better off getting an older collected stump than trying to get similar results in ANY kind of container.
Srt8madness
Omono
Nvm
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Agree... but not in the budget. There are a few places around me that has them, but they are in protected areas. I think I can recreate one, but it will take a few years.
Grown from seed.
Bald Cypress Repot and Trim
I finally got a break and had time to do some repotting, so I tackled this cypress today. It was really in need because I should have done it last spring. Here is the victim: When it was repotted last, it was flush with the container. I grew so much last summer that it pushed itself up...
Progression of One of My Bald Cypress
and the other smaller one is potted up in a Dollar Tree oil drain pan. Lol this is exactly where I got my oil-drain-pan for the smaller of my two BC's! It seemed too-small though once the tree was growing so I got another, filled it halfway with substrate, and just sat the first one into it so...
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Well, um, why not plant them in the ground for a while?Agree... but not in the budget. There are a few places around me that has them, but they are in protected areas. I think I can recreate one, but it will take a few years.
Grown from seed.
Bald Cypress Repot and Trim
I finally got a break and had time to do some repotting, so I tackled this cypress today. It was really in need because I should have done it last spring. Here is the victim: When it was repotted last, it was flush with the container. I grew so much last summer that it pushed itself up...
Progression of One of My Bald Cypress
and the other smaller one is potted up in a Dollar Tree oil drain pan. Lol this is exactly where I got my oil-drain-pan for the smaller of my two BC's! It seemed too-small though once the tree was growing so I got another, filled it halfway with substrate, and just sat the first one into it so...
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Because I consider growing BC in the ground sub par. Especially where I live, my back yard is all clay and rocks.
That was before they added about 3" of top spoil and SOD.
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
Form A buttress is awesome and is probably the easiest to imitate. Pretty much my grow in a flat on top of muck in a tub is shallow water. Form A it is for me
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
Whatever...Not entirely accurate. Bald Cypress is a WETLAND tree. They are native to COASTAL PLAINS up and down the Eastern seaboard and Gulf Coast. That environment encompasses more than just swamps (which are defined as an area of low-lying, uncultivated ground where water collects; a bog or marsh.") There's a difference between standing water and a wetland. Wetland implies water, but not a constant presence, high water tables, seasonal flooding, etc.
Bald cypress grow submerged in water because they CAN not necessarily because they prefer it. As Leo said, they grow there because most other trees can't.
BC seeds won't, or have big problems, germinating underwater, for instance, as they wait for flooding waters to drain. That they optimally have to have their trunks in standing water is a myth. Study after study after study confirms that. Those studies also say that the first three years of growth for BC seedlings is best done in wet conditions, but seedlings have to grow fast enough to keep their heads above potential flood waters. In other words BC seedlings are programmed to grow very quickly. However, after that, standing water isn't necessary and in fact, can inhibit growth in some cases. Seedlings die if they are submerged over their tops. Growing BC in water also affects how they root and how they develop top growth. That growth is different and does different things. My BC which is grown in soggy soil in its container also throws roots through drain holes constantly.
Growing them in water works, as does NOT growing them in water. Yes, they like water A LOT, but creating a swamp to keep them in isn't necessary.
Bald Cypress: Care & Growing Guide | American Conifer Society
Several dwarf cultivars derived from bald cypress have become popular in collectors gardens in the past few years. Learn more.
from the above link: "As one might surmise, the biomass produced by trees growing in a wet or moist condition versus those on higher land receiving water only via normal rain fall differ significantly. Landscape trees will have more limbs, and hence more leaves, whereas those exposed to water will grow fewer limbs and leaves. Bald cypress growing in wet conditions can become massive in time, but the growth rate of trees growing in a normal landscape will be greater."
I know what I see in my own back yard and in the nature around the gulf coast. BC do not naturally occur anywhere except in or close to water.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Never said they don't mostly occur close to or in water. What I said is that they don't require or need or prefer submersion.
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
That article is also full of misinformation and supposition.Not entirely accurate. Bald Cypress is a WETLAND tree. They are native to COASTAL PLAINS up and down the Eastern seaboard and Gulf Coast. That environment encompasses more than just swamps (which are defined as an area of low-lying, uncultivated ground where water collects; a bog or marsh.") There's a difference between standing water and a wetland. Wetland implies water, but not a constant presence, high water tables, seasonal flooding, etc.
Bald cypress grow submerged in water because they CAN not necessarily because they prefer it. As Leo said, they grow there because most other trees can't.
BC seeds won't, or have big problems, germinating underwater, for instance, as they wait for flooding waters to drain. That they optimally have to have their trunks in standing water is a myth. Study after study after study confirms that. Those studies also say that the first three years of growth for BC seedlings is best done in wet conditions, but seedlings have to grow fast enough to keep their heads above potential flood waters. In other words BC seedlings are programmed to grow very quickly. However, after that, standing water isn't necessary and in fact, can inhibit growth in some cases. Seedlings die if they are submerged over their tops. Growing BC in water also affects how they root and how they develop top growth. That growth is different and does different things. My BC which is grown in soggy soil in its container also throws roots through drain holes constantly.
Growing them in water works, as does NOT growing them in water. Yes, they like water A LOT, but creating a swamp to keep them in isn't necessary.
Bald Cypress: Care & Growing Guide | American Conifer Society
Several dwarf cultivars derived from bald cypress have become popular in collectors gardens in the past few years. Learn more.
from the above link: "As one might surmise, the biomass produced by trees growing in a wet or moist condition versus those on higher land receiving water only via normal rain fall differ significantly. Landscape trees will have more limbs, and hence more leaves, whereas those exposed to water will grow fewer limbs and leaves. Bald cypress growing in wet conditions can become massive in time, but the growth rate of trees growing in a normal landscape will be greater."
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
Semantics...
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
yeah, The American Conifer Society knows NOTHING about conifers.
Fake conifer news...
Last edited:
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
Especially about BC
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Then, please explain why the article is wrong, misleading, supposition, etc. (and back it up with more than "from what I've seen"--cognitive bias is not evidence).
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
The supposition that BC have to grow by water to make knees. They don't - plenty of them growing around town in the middle of parking lots making knees.
The statement that pond cypress do not grow as well as bald cypress in wet or flooded areas - they grow just as well, plenty of examples in the Mobile delta and Bellingrath gardens, which is on Fowl River. Many are growing in the river and are never dry.
Those are just a couple, the article you googled up is written by someone who simply is not familiar with the tree.
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
You are right about the knees.
Right outside my lady’s office is a big BC that sends knees as far away as 30 ft from the tree. That area is high and dry. There are quite a few like that in my area too.
