BC question
- Thread starter bonsailevel:master
- Start date
19Mateo83
Masterpiece
When I see mosquitoes
Michigan Tree Murderer
Masterpiece
Wings008
Seedling
i punched a small hole at about half the height of the pot, so when I water the pot, it will drain into the plastic bigger pot with the hole to drain it when it reached half way, this way you keep your soil moist and keep the water fresh, btw I learned the water pot method from here just last week and it’s been really great
Maiden69
Masterpiece
I never truly change the water. Once a week depending on how the water looks (if you use any organic fertilizer you will see a lot of algae build up). If it has a lot of algae I do it more often. I use my Joshua Roth wand and spray hard to loosen the algae and it flows out of the pot with the overfill. Remember that BC thrive in swamps where the water is stagnant. I still water them twice a day, they are a high water mobility (as Ryan calls them), so between the tree using water and evaporation the water level goes down between watering's. IMO, by doing this, you are adding oxygen every time you water.
I use this every time I see some wiggly stuff growing on the pots.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
FWIW, swamps are not really stagnant. They can have stagnant periods, but water levels aren't really constant. Water flows through swamps albeit sometimes very slowly, but it moves. BC show optimal growth in areas that are temporarily (seasonally) flooded. There are numerous, extensive studies showing that. Warm Stagnant water (as in a summertime container) holds less O2 than water that is occasionally changed/drained...
Mikecheck123
Omono
I have never had a BC, but have worked with tons of different willow varieties and the thing I keep relearning is that although willows can survive for long periods of time with their roots completely submerged, they actually have optimal root growth (just like every other tree species) in a well draining medium such as, you guessed it, bonsai soil. Pans of water are a nice crutch when you don't have time to water said medium six times a day during hot summers, but they are NOT ideal for root health in the long run.
I suspect BCs are similar. The fact that they do just fine in bonsai pots suggests this as well.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
I guess my second season seedlings don't think there's less O2 in their water they are in, or that they are in water 24/7/365... BTW, I don't consider my water stagnant, as the container gets new water twice a day.
March 21
March 22
June 22
March 21
March 22
June 22
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Compare the size of my two year seedlings to any BC not grown in water the same age and let me know what you think. @Mellow Mullet has been doing this for years for a reason. I think he removes them from the water tub during winter, but I really never had a winter, but maybe one or two weeks of freezing-below freezing temps. This year they were in water during the snow storm, frozen solid. If my winter was longer, I would remove them from the water during that time.
Mikecheck123
Omono
Your seedlings' roots are not fully submerged in water like they would be in a stagnant swamp. So are we in agreement that some above-water parts are good? I use pans of water during the summer as well, but I'm not convinced that the roots are growing better because of the fact that they're fully submerged. On the contrary, root growth in trees generally is stimulated by frequent drying out, and thus I let my pans dry out before refilling for that reason (and also because doing so keeps the mosquito larvae in check).
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Those were repotted this year, I don't have a deeper tub yet, the one next to them that was not repotted, the water level is the same as the top of the soil after the system water it. They will be moved into individual tubs as soon as I find something deep enough that can be secured to the bench.
I have read or at least browsed every BD thread here (or I am close to), and I have not seen the growth rate that John or I am seeing with the trees in water. I have seen trees that are on their 5th or 6th season that don't look to be the size of the one seedling that didn't get chopped this year. My 3rd season one is between 4-5" where the soil meets the trunk, and I am sure it flares more below it.
The metal bar is parallel with the tub edge, it gets full of water when the system finishes watering.
My 1 gal (this is its 3rd season, is completely submerged after the system runs.
Last edited:
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,465
- Reaction score
- 23,729
- USDA Zone
- 5b
Bald cypress do NOT NEED to be submerged or even partially submerged in water. @rockm is spot on. I've grown bald cypress for decades without ever putting a tray of water under my trees. Just keep the potting media an average level of moist, as appropriate for a maple or elm, and bald cypress will grow just fine.
Bald cypress live where they do because in they survive in flooded environments that other trees would drown in. They outcompete other species in flooded environments. In upland settings they would grow just fine, except they can't compete with the elms and maples there.
However a hard dry out can be fatal. If your bonsai care puts your trees at risk of drying out, a shallow pan of water makes it easier to avoid a hard dry out. Bald cypress are "water pigs" in that that as @Mellow Mullet and @Maiden69 have described, very fast growth can be had with the pots in shallow pans of water in the warm summer months.
The ideal set up is to have shallow pans of water, less than 1/3 the depth of the pot under your bald cypress during the warm summer months.
Bald cypress live where they do because in they survive in flooded environments that other trees would drown in. They outcompete other species in flooded environments. In upland settings they would grow just fine, except they can't compete with the elms and maples there.
However a hard dry out can be fatal. If your bonsai care puts your trees at risk of drying out, a shallow pan of water makes it easier to avoid a hard dry out. Bald cypress are "water pigs" in that that as @Mellow Mullet and @Maiden69 have described, very fast growth can be had with the pots in shallow pans of water in the warm summer months.
The ideal set up is to have shallow pans of water, less than 1/3 the depth of the pot under your bald cypress during the warm summer months.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Completely agree that they don't need to be submerged. Just stating that for a tree in development (trunk fattening) a surplus of water is needed. If I could set up and ebb & flow system to flood the trees every 30 min or so I would do it just to see if the extra oxygen pulled in when the water evacuates provides for even faster growing. I guess I need to pick Curtis brain one of this days and try to make one up.
As far as the quote, I think this will be the way to go once I move the trees into bonsai pots for refinement. Right now all I want is for them to get fat.
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,465
- Reaction score
- 23,729
- USDA Zone
- 5b
30 minute cycle ebb and flow, that is ridiculous for plain old dumb green trees like bald cypress. A friend in Columbus Ohio built a 30 minute ebb and flow table, with a compact dorm room refrigerator to hold the 5 gallon bucket reservoir for the ebb and flow table. He raises Disa orchids in the table
this yeller one is his
others of the type like it
now those are worth some engineering.
this yeller one is his
others of the type like it
now those are worth some engineering.
Mellow Mullet
Masterpiece
I can agree that BC will grow and survive in regular soil or on dry land, but if you really want them to thrive, submerge them-all summer-don't worry about ebb and flow, just submerge them. They are a swamp tree, you do not really see them naturally occurring in nature, except in a swamp. I have seen many BC on this site, most started out as a stumped tree dug out of, hold your breath, a swamp. A swamp! They love water, not just tolerate it, they tolerate regular (dry land). All of my BC are grown from seed, have been submerged in water 9 months out of the year, grow so many roots that I have 1 to 2 foot roots sticking out of the pot each season. Growing them in water works, if you don't believe it, look at some of my threads.
John
Rock on @Maiden69, I was listening to Edward the Great on the way to work this morning...
John
Rock on @Maiden69, I was listening to Edward the Great on the way to work this morning...
Backwardsvg
Shohin
In 3 seasons it is 4-5” from a seedling? Dang son I need to get one of these that’s sweet!
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
- Messages
- 11,465
- Reaction score
- 23,729
- USDA Zone
- 5b
Technically, bald cypress group, which includes the pond cypress, bald cypress and Mexican cypress are a group that is more or less more closely related to the Redwood group than any other group of conifers. The coast redwood, and the giant sequoia are pretty closely related. And the Chinese dawn redwood is the bridge species between the sequoia-redwoods and the bald cypress group. Collectively all of them in this greater group, size up quickly in favorable conditions. I've been stunned at how fast a dawn redwood can grow. But all of them are fast growing.
bonsailevel:master
Mame
Totally agree with you Maiden69. I see BC all the time planted in yards and such (dry environments) and do fine. But there is a reason they naturally thrive in backwater and rivers. You made a point earlier about watering and then a outflow of water of the outer pot. Everytime I water it overflows a bit bringing in fresh O2 everytime. Will just keep an eye on the health of the tree. Thanks for the insight.
Mikecheck123
Omono
How much water do your BCs suck up?
My thirstiest tree (a dwarf willow) drinks more than 2 gallons a day despite being less than 3 feet tall. I'm not sure where it goes.
This time lapse covers 6 hours when it was only high 70s. Each "refill" is one gallon.
My thirstiest tree (a dwarf willow) drinks more than 2 gallons a day despite being less than 3 feet tall. I'm not sure where it goes.
This time lapse covers 6 hours when it was only high 70s. Each "refill" is one gallon.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Not entirely accurate. Bald Cypress is a WETLAND tree. They are native to COASTAL PLAINS up and down the Eastern seaboard and Gulf Coast. That environment encompasses more than just swamps (which are defined as an area of low-lying, uncultivated ground where water collects; a bog or marsh.") There's a difference between standing water and a wetland. Wetland implies water, but not a constant presence, high water tables, seasonal flooding, etc.
Bald cypress grow submerged in water because they CAN not necessarily because they prefer it. As Leo said, they grow there because most other trees can't.
BC seeds won't, or have big problems, germinating underwater, for instance, as they wait for flooding waters to drain. That they optimally have to have their trunks in standing water is a myth. Study after study after study confirms that. Those studies also say that the first three years of growth for BC seedlings is best done in wet conditions, but seedlings have to grow fast enough to keep their heads above potential flood waters. In other words BC seedlings are programmed to grow very quickly. However, after that, standing water isn't necessary and in fact, can inhibit growth in some cases. Seedlings die if they are submerged over their tops. Growing BC in water also affects how they root and how they develop top growth. That growth is different and does different things. My BC which is grown in soggy soil in its container also throws roots through drain holes constantly.
Growing them in water works, as does NOT growing them in water. Yes, they like water A LOT, but creating a swamp to keep them in isn't necessary.
Bald Cypress: Care & Growing Guide | American Conifer Society
Several dwarf cultivars derived from bald cypress have become popular in collectors gardens in the past few years. Learn more.
conifersociety.org
from the above link: "As one might surmise, the biomass produced by trees growing in a wet or moist condition versus those on higher land receiving water only via normal rain fall differ significantly. Landscape trees will have more limbs, and hence more leaves, whereas those exposed to water will grow fewer limbs and leaves. Bald cypress growing in wet conditions can become massive in time, but the growth rate of trees growing in a normal landscape will be greater."
Last edited:
