Austrian pine pruning

[Myrki]

Hello. I found some Austrian black pines at Lowe’s for $28. I didn’t pick one up as I want to do research first, but I noticed the branches seemed to be kind of long with needles full to the trunk. I see all the videos of decandling, but can I simply cut a pine branch say back to half length and have it continue growth from that point, so long as there r still needles left on the existing length of the branch?
All the pine videos I see is of people pruning the candles, but not cutting back the branch further back.
Thanks!

 

[Shibui]

I see all the videos of decandling, but can I simply cut a pine branch say back to half length and have it continue growth from that point, so long as there r still needles left on the existing length of the branch?

First off, I believe P. nigra is a single flush species so the decandling used on JBP is not right for P. nigra.
Decandling is a way of getting short shoots and short needles. It is often misunderstood and misapplied (like may of the mysterious bonsai techniques). Decandling is not the most effective technique during the grow stage of pine development. During those formative years when building trunks I prefer to allow growth and chop back hard to control lengthening branches.
Unfortunately the makers of many of the videos are so busy showing that they have mastered the mysteries of decandling that they forget to let you know there's other techniques used in the previous stages.

All the pines I have worked with can grow new buds from any healthy needles which mans they can all be chopped back well behind the actual candles. you can definitely cut the branches of those pines. My advice is to cut shorter rather than longer. New buds often come from the needles closer to the chop point so cut back to where you think you need those secondary branches - provided there are healthy needles.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

First off, I believe P. nigra is a single flush species so the decandling used on JBP is not right for P. nigra.
Decandling is a way of getting short shoots and short needles. It is often misunderstood and misapplied (like may of the mysterious bonsai techniques). Decandling is not the most effective technique during the grow stage of pine development. During those formative years when building trunks I prefer to allow growth and chop back hard to control lengthening branches.
Unfortunately the makers of many of the videos are so busy showing that they have mastered the mysteries of decandling that they forget to let you know there's other techniques used in the previous stages.

All the pines I have worked with can grow new buds from any healthy needles which mans they can all be chopped back well behind the actual candles. you can definitely cut the branches of those pines. My advice is to cut shorter rather than longer. New buds often come from the needles closer to the chop point so cut back to where you think you need those secondary branches - provided there are healthy needles.

Your comment just reinforced my understanding of chopping, back budding, and ramifying.

 

[Myrki]

Ah thank u both very much. Exactly what I needed to finally hear

 

[Myrki]

First off, I believe P. nigra is a single flush species so the decandling used on JBP is not right for P. nigra.
Decandling is a way of getting short shoots and short needles. It is often misunderstood and misapplied (like may of the mysterious bonsai techniques). Decandling is not the most effective technique during the grow stage of pine development. During those formative years when building trunks I prefer to allow growth and chop back hard to control lengthening branches.
Unfortunately the makers of many of the videos are so busy showing that they have mastered the mysteries of decandling that they forget to let you know there's other techniques used in the previous stages.

All the pines I have worked with can grow new buds from any healthy needles which mans they can all be chopped back well behind the actual candles. you can definitely cut the branches of those pines. My advice is to cut shorter rather than longer. New buds often come from the needles closer to the chop point so cut back to where you think you need those secondary branches - provided there are healthy needles.

First off, I believe P. nigra is a single flush species so the decandling used on JBP is not right for P. nigra.
Decandling is a way of getting short shoots and short needles. It is often misunderstood and misapplied (like may of the mysterious bonsai techniques). Decandling is not the most effective technique during the grow stage of pine development. During those formative years when building trunks I prefer to allow growth and chop back hard to control lengthening branches.
Unfortunately the makers of many of the videos are so busy showing that they have mastered the mysteries of decandling that they forget to let you know there's other techniques used in the previous stages.

All the pines I have worked with can grow new buds from any healthy needles which mans they can all be chopped back well behind the actual candles. you can definitely cut the branches of those pines. My advice is to cut shorter rather than longer. New buds often come from the needles closer to the chop point so cut back to where you think you need those secondary branches - provided there are healthy needles.

How about the timing of cutting back? Would I be safe to do so now? I would like to creat more of a literati style.

 

[MaciekA]

How about the timing of cutting back? Would I be safe to do so now? I would like to creat more of a literati style.

There's timing within the season and then there's timing within the stage of development of the tree. Riffing off what @Shibui said, a typical pine video may say "we prune this pine on date X" but neglect to mention what stage the overall tree should be at by the time you start doing those hard cuts.

A typical Lowes tree is going to be in potting soil. Changing out of that potting soil and into an aggregate should be your first order of business (at the next repotting window that is) before you start shortening any/all the tips on the tree. Those tips pay your way to a much faster recovery from these transitional repots if left on the tree. If you start shortening before these inevitable repots, the tree becomes more susceptible to issues and also later takes much longer to recover from those transitional repots (if you choose to do them later instead).

 

[WNC Bonsai]

First as Shibu said these are single flush pones so you only get one shot at this each year. There are 2 options and now is not the time to be doing them. So first, in the spring as the candles begin to extend you will usually see two or more on the ends of the branches with one usually larger and stronger. By cutting the stronger one back it forces the energy into the smaller candles and buds further back on the branch and balances growth. Another option is to let the candles develop and grow until late August and then cut off the terminal candle. This forces all the energy stored over the summer into developing new buds for the following year. In all cases keep in mind that P. nigra in my experience do not readily pop buds on bare wood, but instead mainly pop them between the two needles in a pair. So if you want new branches DO NOT strip needles willy nilly, leave them for new branches to form.

 

[Japonicus]

Yes p. nigra is a single flush pine and decandeling is not suggested as with JBP.
True, you should begin the transition to bonsai soil 1st.
Main thing now is to purchase at least 2 of these.
My Lowes had them about 15 yrs ago but not since. So go get it and observe its growth characteristics. Plenty of time to research little time to pick a good prospective tree for bonsai.
Do not remove the apical leader for years. If you provide room for the roots the apical leader will add girth to the trunk over the years until you're satisfied with the girth.

No issue with removing needles on the bottom of branches to help program buds to not form there, at any time (now). It will also allow a little more light into the interior and remove energy robbing needles that take more energy to live than they are providing.

 

[leatherback]

words vss images.

I am glad that in my video I actually do point out the age/development stage for pruning work.
Maybe it helps.

 

[Myrki]

words vss images.

I am glad that in my video I actually do point out the age/development stage for pruning work.
Maybe it helps.

The video was great, and you answered my question about cutting back further. Late summer and buds will likely form. Thanks everyone for your insight

 

[Shibui]

First as Shibu said these are single flush pones so you only get one shot at this each year.

In my early ignorance I discovered that, in practice, time of year is not so critical.
I have never killed a pine by pruning when leaving some needles. True these are single flush pines so new buds only grow in spring but we can still cut back any time.
If pruned early spring a replacement flush of buds is probable.
If pruned later new buds will simply be delayed until the following spring but we can still prune any time from spring through to end of summer (and in warmer climes, through winter too) without endangering the tree. The long delay until new buds does freak some people out which, I guess is why most advice is only cut in spring so you get relatively quick results.

Changing out of that potting soil and into an aggregate should be your first order of business (at the next repotting window that is) before you start shortening any/all the tips on the tree. Those tips pay your way to a much faster recovery from these transitional repots if left on the tree. If you start shortening before these inevitable repots, the tree becomes more susceptible to issues and also later takes much longer to recover from those transitional repots (if you choose to do them later instead).

Changing the soil is definitely important but may not be the MOST important. IMHO it depends on the age of the branches and where viable needles are placed that we can cut back to. Remember that needles typically have a 3 year life span. If the oldest needles on a vital branch are already 2 years old they will probably die and fall some time the following summer which will leave a bare section on that branch. We also know that these pines do not bud readily on bare wood so we need to decide which is more important - roots in bonsai soil OR viable buds on some branches.
As you have mentioned, pines handle repotting far better with intact terminal buds so pruning and repotting in the same year is not advised.
It's a case of either prune OR repot.
IMHO we can nurse a tree along in standard potting soil for a year or 2 (after all the nursery has manged it for quite a few years to get the tree to you) but preserving those options for budding on branches is vital to a good end result.
If the branches are only 2 years old we do not need to worry so transplant can take precedence with no issues.

As with much of bonsai, the decisions are as not black and white as some believe. There can be many nuances to achieve all the goals we are after.

 

[Myrki]

In my early ignorance I discovered that, in practice, time of year is not so critical.
I have never killed a pine by pruning when leaving some needles. True these are single flush pines so new buds only grow in spring but we can still cut back any time.
If pruned early spring a replacement flush of buds is probable.
If pruned later new buds will simply be delayed until the following spring but we can still prune any time from spring through to end of summer (and in warmer climes, through winter too) without endangering the tree. The long delay until new buds does freak some people out which, I guess is why most advice is only cut in spring so you get relatively quick results.


Changing the soil is definitely important but may not be the MOST important. IMHO it depends on the age of the branches and where viable needles are placed that we can cut back to. Remember that needles typically have a 3 year life span. If the oldest needles on a vital branch are already 2 years old they will probably die and fall some time the following summer which will leave a bare section on that branch. We also know that these pines do not bud readily on bare wood so we need to decide which is more important - roots in bonsai soil OR viable buds on some branches.
As you have mentioned, pines handle repotting far better with intact terminal buds so pruning and repotting in the same year is not advised.
It's a case of either prune OR repot.
IMHO we can nurse a tree along in standard potting soil for a year or 2 (after all the nursery has manged it for quite a few years to get the tree to you) but preserving those options for budding on branches is vital to a good end result.
If the branches are only 2 years old we do not need to worry so transplant can take precedence with no issues.

As with much of bonsai, the decisions are as not black and white as some believe. There can be many nuances to achieve all the goals we are after.

Thank u, very informative and helpful