Approaches to building forests and “making” forest material?

[Pepibom]

Greetings all,

I have recently started growing my own forest material (Trident) I have a variety of material in the works including cuttings, whips and some 2-3 yr old stuff.
I am curious to know if you all have a certain approach to growing forest material? Do you let things just grow out for years before cutting back? Are you trimming the tops or the side branches out every season? Are you planting your planting your forests as young clumps right from the start in grow pots or do you develop separate trees and place/arrange them later?
As discussion “fodder” I am attaching a pic of a forest clump in a nursery pot and also of a smaller trident forest I recently saw in an auction. What approach would one take to creating a little forest like that??
A chalupa of questions here; appreciate your contributions for any of them

 

[dbonsaiw]

I've seen both forests and clumps (they aren't the same thing) set up to grow like that from the start. This is probably especially true for clumps as you want some fusing between the trees to develop this style. The forest relies more upon composition - placement of the various trees and use of different size trees to make the forest believable.

As for pruning along the way, the short answer would be yes. The longer answer relates more to the actual specimen(s) you are trying to develop. What size do you want this tree to be? What do your trunks look like now? In short, these will be developed essentially the same as any other bonsai, except directed at a specific style. Grow when you need size, prune when you need taper and movement. If you set up seedlings for a forest planting and want the trunks to be multiple inches thick, you will need to grow these out. A nice thing about forest plantings is that trees can be developed on the smaller side thereby allowing you to get to the actual branch development faster.

 

[BrightsideB]

Your composition is a clump. Imagine once the saplings double in size they will start to fuse at the base creating one single tree. I am currently growing forest material. Every year I start new seeds. That way I have different size and aged trees. Forests have much more appeal because of that subtle diversity. When forests have all the same size trees it’s not as interesting.

 

[Pepibom]

Your composition is a clump. Imagine once the saplings double in size they will start to fuse at the base creating one single tree. I am currently growing forest material. Every year I start new seeds. That way I have different size and aged trees. Forests have much more appeal because of that subtle diversity. When forests have all the same size trees it’s not as interesting.

Thanks for the info. Say let’s say I wanted to create something like this small forest clump (not mine—in the white pot). Would you arrange small Saplings and allow them to grow in a clump to a larger size in a larger pot? Or would you allow them to grow and fuse in the smaller bonsai pot, pruning and such along the way?just trying to get my sequencing right.

 

[sorce]

Looks to be somewhere between a clump and a forest..but where?
Seems like anywhere that will allow it a pricetag IMO.

I reckon there's something to be said about the naturalness that could occur by slamming a bunch of stuff close and letting it compete itself into a design.

You could also grow everything out seperate to "perfection".

Each has benefits and drawbacks, maybe doing both is key?

Never close the toolbox and always live outside of it!

Sorce

 

[rockm]

The younger you plant trees together in a pot, the closer you can place them. That tighter space can work for you in creating a forest. Typically, people use saplings that haven't grown together, but have been collected or grown in separate pots. Those individual root masses have to be merge together. That can make things very difficult and can make a forest look unnatural.

If you plant young trees together from the outset, placing them as closely as possible, it can create a more "believable" forest image. There is one traditional "style" that involves just picking up a fistful of saplings/seedlings and jamming them into a pot and growing them out.

In short there is no real correct sequence to this. All depends on what you want and what you have on hand.

The sooner you plant trees together in the pot, the sooner they will begin to integrate themselves with growth. I started this forest of amur a ver long time ago, when I planted all the saplings in the same container. It's been 20 years and this is the nebari they've produced.

 

[Kanorin]

Great questions here - things I have been ruminating on myself. I was recently listening to the Bonsai Mirai assymmetry podcast episode "Dennis Vojtilla: Part two" and the tip Dennis gave was to start a whole flat of seedlings growing close together, then after a few years cut out a chunk of seedlings (kind of like a jigsaw puzzle where each piece may have a few to a dozen or so trees) and arrange a few chunks into your landscape pot (leaving some negative space where needed) to create the scene that you want. I'm going to try it. I'm also going to try growing out little groupings of 2 or 3 trees close together and then I'll arrange those at some point in the future.

One thing to point out is that I don't want ALL of the trees growing closely together. I'm looking for some that grow very close and then some to have a few inches of space between them and the next little group.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

A clump, is a bunch of seedlings or cuttings, roughly same age, jammed together and then allowed to grow out and fuse at the base.

A forest is a group of many trees, can be same species, can be various species, arranged to represent a forest scene, the area represented is distinctly larger than what is usually represented by "clump" bonsai. "Forest styles" will usually, but not always, represent trees with a range of ages. younger trees to the outside, oldest tend to be the focal points.

There is no "bright line" between clump and forest.

When planning a forest, often trees are gathered and trained individually for a number of years before assembling the actual forest. For a 15 tree forest, one might have 5 trees in individual pots in training. And in order to vary the distances between trunks, have 2 pots with 3 trees in each, tightly bound to each other so the 3 trunks fuse at the base. Then also have 2 pots with 2 trees each tightly bound to each other. Then when assembling the forest there will be 5 individual trees, 2 ''Twin trunk" trees, and 2 triplets, to give a nice irregular pattern to the arrangement of trees.

There are no hard and fast rules for forests, though irregular placement of trees is common. Tallest tree is usually largest diameter tree, and this focal point tree is never, or almost never positioned dead center. Always have focal point off center. Common is to have a "visual pathway" one could walk through the forest, some use pebbles or sand, some just suggest the path with a change in texture of the moss used to cover the soil. Some skip the path idea entirely.

Forests of mixed species are more difficult to get proportions correct, but when well done are magical. Hornbeam is often used as a stand in for beech, trident or JM for Acer rubrum or sugar maple. Seek out postings by Arthur Joura of North Carolina Arboretum Bonsai Collection, he has done some excellent mixed species forests.

 

[Cajunrider]

Looks to be somewhere between a clump and a forest..but where?
Seems like anywhere that will allow it a pricetag IMO.

I reckon there's something to be said about the naturalness that could occur by slamming a bunch of stuff close and letting it compete itself into a design.

You could also grow everything out seperate to "perfection".

Each has benefits and drawbacks, maybe doing both is key?

Never close the toolbox and always live outside of it!

Sorce

"Naturalness" ! I like that term. So far I have put together 4 forests and they were neither happenstances nor carefully planned. In all cases, I have some trees from various sources and the time seemed right to make one and I did it. So it that sense mine are all natural

I have no hope of growing everything out separately to perfection cuz I ain't never gonna achieve perfection by any measure. Hopefully a few years down the road the trees in my forests will find the way to coexist in roughly the form I want them to be. That is all I want.

 

[Shibui]

Like a lot of bonsai there's no one best way to make group style bonsai.
Trees grown on in separate pots will thicken quicker and allow some focal main trees for a group. Trees grown close together will have that hard to define forest look - part branches on one side, part trunks that move away from each other, part something else.
I also use @Leo in N E Illinois strategy of growing some trees as small clumps and some as individuals to make it easier to get random spacing in the final composition.
Getting random spacing is far more difficult than you think. It appears we are programmed to space things evenly so without really concentrating group plantings end up looking like parkland. Concentrate on spacing while assembling, step back and look critically then move trees to break up the inevitable even spacing. The following year groups that you have finally noticed are too even can be broken up into individuals or smaller groups and reassembled with some hindsight.
Potted trees can still be used for groups but you'll need to be brave enough to cut almost all roots of one side of some trees to get that closer spacing required for better natural, random look.

I also assemble groups in larger grow pots to allow the trunks to grow faster and mature as the branching changes to forest but beware when doing this. Outer trees with more root space and more branches tend to grow and thicken faster than the inner trunks which will soon ruin the careful arrangement of tall, thicker trees near the centre and thinner ones at edges and rear. Be ready to prune outer trees harder and defoliate to maintain trunk differential while growing on.

These shohin trident groups were assembled in winter 12 months ago showing the 2 different approaches.
Red pot was assembled from trees grown in individual pots for several years.


This one was assembled from selected seedlings planted straight into the final display pot. They will be allowed to develop together over time. To maintain shohin I'll be trimming regularly rather than allowing lots of growth.


A much older trident group planting. These trees were assembled in a larger grow box and allowed to grow freely to increase trunk thickness while still maintaining forestness?? of individual trunks.


An even older trident group assembled at a workshop around 40 years ago

Several of the outer trunks have grown thicker than the centre trees over the years. See comments above.

 

[Ming dynasty]

Just got these in today. The guy said they were grown from seedlings. I don’t see grafting mark so it might be so. I’m attempting to make a maple forest. Some are currently 3-4ft tall.
My question is when is a good time to cut them back down before repot all in one pot in beginning of next spring.
Is there enough pic here to determine if this was seedling/air layered/grafted?

If I leave out some info that you may need to give an advice, lmk and I can post it. Thank you for all your help. Sorry for being so needy lol

 

[Shibui]

Is there enough pic here to determine if this was seedling/air layered/grafted?

I can't see any marks to indicate a graft.
Lots of Japanese maples are grown from seed so if the seller said they are seedlings that's the most likely origin for these.
Layering is too slow and time consuming for commercial propagation so only backyard growers are likely to do that.

It does not really matter how these were started, only that they are growing well.

My question is when is a good time to cut them back down before repot all in one pot in beginning of next spring.

You can chop maples through summer and you will probably get some new growth before winter. Summer shoots might have shorter internodes.
You can chop soon after leaves drop but no response until spring.
You can repot and chop at the same time and should have reasonably quick response with new shoots in spring. New spring shoots are likely to have long internodes. I usually chop and repot in one go when making groups from young trees.
More advanced forest bonsai can be assembled from trees that have been grown and pruned for several years in separate pots - see the pics in post above for a comparison of young seedlings V older semi-trained trees to assemble group bonsai.

There's rarely just one 'best' way to do anything in bonsai, just lots of different options that can lead to a similar outcome.

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

Like a lot of bonsai there's no one best way to make group style bonsai.
Trees grown on in separate pots will thicken quicker and allow some focal main trees for a group. Trees grown close together will have that hard to define forest look - part branches on one side, part trunks that move away from each other, part something else.
I also use @Leo in N E Illinois strategy of growing some trees as small clumps and some as individuals to make it easier to get random spacing in the final composition.
Getting random spacing is far more difficult than you think. It appears we are programmed to space things evenly so without really concentrating group plantings end up looking like parkland. Concentrate on spacing while assembling, step back and look critically then move trees to break up the inevitable even spacing. The following year groups that you have finally noticed are too even can be broken up into individuals or smaller groups and reassembled with some hindsight.
Potted trees can still be used for groups but you'll need to be brave enough to cut almost all roots of one side of some trees to get that closer spacing required for better natural, random look.

I also assemble groups in larger grow pots to allow the trunks to grow faster and mature as the branching changes to forest but beware when doing this. Outer trees with more root space and more branches tend to grow and thicken faster than the inner trunks which will soon ruin the careful arrangement of tall, thicker trees near the centre and thinner ones at edges and rear. Be ready to prune outer trees harder and defoliate to maintain trunk differential while growing on.

These shohin trident groups were assembled in winter 12 months ago showing the 2 different approaches.
Red pot was assembled from trees grown in individual pots for several years.
View attachment 438686

This one was assembled from selected seedlings planted straight into the final display pot. They will be allowed to develop together over time. To maintain shohin I'll be trimming regularly rather than allowing lots of growth.
View attachment 438687

A much older trident group planting. These trees were assembled in a larger grow box and allowed to grow freely to increase trunk thickness while still maintaining forestness?? of individual trunks.
View attachment 438688

An even older trident group assembled at a workshop around 40 years ago
View attachment 438689
Several of the outer trunks have grown thicker than the centre trees over the years. See comments above.

Beautiful examples. What size are the pots on these? Making a purchase or two this fall on future forest pots.

 

[VAFisher]

I took a similar approach to @rockm with my only forest. I planted 7 cuttings together a year after they rooted so the trees were pretty easy to get close. I left the roots buried pretty deep for a few years and they went pretty crazy on me when I started exposing them. Now the roots have pushed one of the trees into a new position I don't really like, so I'm gonna try to fix it on the next repot.

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

I don’t have much to add except that once you spend the time and money in making a nice forest, you shouldn’t leave it outside all weekend in a freak cold spell that drops temps to below 15.

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

I took a similar approach to @rockm with my only forest. I planted 7 cuttings together a year after they rooted so the trees were pretty easy to get close. I left the roots buried pretty deep for a few years and they went pretty crazy on me when I started exposing them. Now the roots have pushed one of the trees into a new position I don't really like, so I'm gonna try to fix it on the next repot.

View attachment 454483
View attachment 454486
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Great progression, thanks for sharing! What species?

 

[VAFisher]

Great progression, thanks for sharing! What species?

Thanks. It's Water Elm.

 

[Shibui]

Beautiful examples. What size are the pots on these? Making a purchase or two this fall on future forest pots.

Thanks Brad.
The largest is the blue pot with the oldest group. That pot measures 54cm x 43cm x 7.5cm deep

The other large group is the creamy pot. That one is just a bit smaller at 49cm x 36cm x 5cm deep

You can probably estimate the smaller pots from the hand. The red one is smallest at 21cm x 15cm x 4cm
The new seedling group is 24cm x 18cm x 4cm deep.

I'm sure you can do the conversions to inches.
Good trays for groups are harder to find so good luck with getting some.

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

Thanks Brad.
The largest is the blue pot with the oldest group. That pot measures 54cm x 43cm x 7.5cm deep

The other large group is the creamy pot. That one is just a bit smaller at 49cm x 36cm x 5cm deep

You can probably estimate the smaller pots from the hand. The red one is smallest at 21cm x 15cm x 4cm
The new seedling group is 24cm x 18cm x 4cm deep.

I'm sure you can do the conversions to inches.
Good trays for groups are harder to find so good luck with getting some.

I’ve found some from Matt Ouwinga on eBay that are pushing 20” (50cm) in width. Appreciate the dimensions, it is difficult having not created many forests, and having no mature examples with thicker trees and how that composition will scale. Thank you.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I need to plant me some seeds this autumn.