Approach grafting a tip

[Nishant]

Hello Friends,

I just thought of checking this with people and more experienced and knowledgable folks here.

Approach graft is known to have higher success rate than bud grafting and is done with a long flexible shoot ( scion ) spliced onto side of another stock branch. Left for a certain amount of time, the union heals up.

What if I spliced the scion shoot just below current years growth. After the new growth has hardened by August-Sept and the sap in scot pine has reduced, I plan to do such apporach grafts. Grafting top section, I believe, will make grafting less visible.

Please share your thoughts. MY scot pine has become too leggy in the lower side and I see no option other than grafting.

Thanks
Nishant

 

[leatherback]

to be honest, I am not sure what you are proposing to do?

What is the question, whether you can self-graft branches, so make the donor also receiver? Yes you can.

 

[Shibui]

You can approach graft pretty much anywhere on the tree. i don't see much point grafting just below current growth though. Surely pruning is a quicker and easier way to get growth so close to young and active shoots?

Maybe a picture of your tree would explain your plan a bit better.

 

[Nishant]

to be honest, I am not sure what you are proposing to do?

What is the question, whether you can self-graft branches, so make the donor also receiver? Yes you can.

Yes Donor & Reciever is the same.

 

[Nishant]

Thanks Shibui and Leatherback for replies.

Shibui, I think you got me wrong. The green section that I am proposing to use is not of the accepter branch. The site of grafting will be a woody section on accepter branch. It is the DONOR branch whose current years growth will be used. I hope you got what I am saying.

My idea in a bit more detail:

An approached grafted scion shoot which is older is difficult to get perpendiclarly outward from the graft site of stock branch. It tends to stay parallel to stock branch and thus appears quite unnatural. Trying to bend a hard shoot by wiring will put lot of pressure on the graft union. I can wire/bend it in advance but overall it has weight that then requires that it be supported and looked after for longer time untill the union heals.

A bud grafing, I believe, does not suffer this problem so much.

A successful bud graft grows out perpendicular and appears more natural. Its has less weight and thus there is a lesser risk if union breaking due to weight or on a windy day.

So as an alternative, I was thinking of approach grafting the scion branch while it is still green.

Grafting is the only option. The shoots behind are too woody.

 

[leatherback]

I would for this tree work with backbudding. Good fertilizer, sun and well-timed pruning. It can do with thinning too, lots of three-way branches there.

 

[Nishant]

I would for this tree work with backbudding. Good fertilizer, sun and well-timed pruning. It can do with thinning too, lots of three-way branches there.

I have given it liquid fish emulsion two times untill now and once an all nutirient solution. Have pulled down the branches so that it recieves sunlight everywhere. Pinched out the growth on top to balance the growth on lower branches. The top growth was too vigrous.

 

[markyscott]

I would for this tree work with backbudding.

I‘m no a Scot pine grower (they don’t grow in my area), but I suspect it may be unlikely to get backbudding close to the trunk where it’s needed. That part of the branches looks to be 4-5 years old.

An approached grafted scion shoot which is older is difficult to get perpendiclarly outward from the graft site of stock branch.

I'm confused about this. I don’t think you want branches to emerge perpendicular to one another. Generally, if I want to use the graft to become the new leader, I place the scion on top of and parallel to the branch on the root stock. When I want to increase ramification or to change the branch direction, I place it on the side and parallel to the branch on the root stock. It would be the same for either an approach graft or a detached scion graft.

A bud grafing, I believe, does not suffer this problem so much

I‘ve never heard of someone doing a bud graft on a pine. Are you talking about detached scion grafting?

A successful bud graft grows out perpendicular and appears more natural.

Again, I don’t think you want perpendicular branching. I think you’ll want V shaped branches that emerge at an acute angle. This is easy to achieve with either grafting approach.

After the new growth has hardened by August-Sept and the sap in scot pine has reduced, I plan to do such apporach grafts.

This is out of season for the time I typically carry out grafting work.

It sounds like you’re weighing the advantage and disadvantages of approach grafting vs detached scion grafting. Here’s how I see it.

	Advantages​	Disadvantages​
Approach grafting ​	Higher success rate Only approach for root grafting	Bigger, more noticeable scar Have to grow long shoots to position them Less flexibility to position them accurately More difficult to place them in tight space
Detached scion grafting​	Less visible scarring Easier to carry out a lot of them Easier to position them accurately Easier to work in tight spaces close to the trunk	Lower success rate

Weighing these, I always go with detached scion grafts on pines unless I’m root grafting. I just do a lot of them. After several seasons, I usually have grafts where I need them. Sometimes I have to try a few times. You can find a ton more information with lots of photographs and illustrations in this thread.

Hope that helps.

scott

 

[Nishant]

Thanks markyscott for your reply. There is only one "Like" I can give. I wish there was a way to press "Like" so many times. You got me right. I did mean detached scion grafting as bud grafting. And more importantly about my point of getting a perpendicular growth. You are quite right that if I want it to be new leader, then the normal approach grafting will work perfectly. Thanks for spotting this.

As you said, back-budding is not possible so far back anyway. Many Thanks for the points you made.

 

[leatherback]

I‘m no a Scot pine grower (they don’t grow in my area), but I suspect it may be unlikely to get backbudding close to the trunk where it’s needed. That part of the branches looks to be 4-5 years old.

I do hope you are wrong, because I have a pine that I hope to get compact through backbudding. The branches there are also quite old. I am hopefull as a pine I sold a few years back did get bud popping near the trunk after a good feed and summer cutback into the older needles, allowing me to build the tree properly without snaking..

in this thread.

Brilliant. Thank you.

 

[markyscott]

I do hope you are wrong, because I have a pine that I hope to get compact through backbudding. The branches there are also quite old. I am hopefull as a pine I sold a few years back did get bud popping near the trunk after a good feed and summer cutback into the older needles, allowing me to build the tree properly without snaking..
View attachment 309655


Brilliant. Thank you.

There are a few pines that bud back reliably on old wood. Loblolly is one that I’m aware of. Perhaps Scot pine is another. I know that most pines do not. It’s not the end of the world though - cultivating good grafting skills is fun and an important part of creating good bonsai, especially when it comes to rehabbing old pines.

- S

 

[Nishant]

Can I approach graft now? With pine branches full of sap, is grafting going to better or should I wait till sap flow subsides. Where does the sap go in winter? In roots?

 

[River's Edge]

Can I approach graft now? With pine branches full of sap, is grafting going to better or should I wait till sap flow subsides. Where does the sap go in winter? In roots?

This is not the time to graft a pine, the extra sap interferes with the grafting process! Typical pine grafting is just as dormancy is breaking. Approach grafting is not the best way to go. Check with local clubs for the best time in your climatic zone. I expect it will be Jan/Feb/March.
Successful grafting involves conditioning the tree first and carefully selecting the scions or approach material. Both methods require care and attention to detail, makes sense to choose the method that gives the best results. ( scion grafting)

 

[markyscott]

Can I approach graft now? With pine branches full of sap, is grafting going to better or should I wait till sap flow subsides. Where does the sap go in winter? In roots?

As I mentioned, I personally would not approach graft. If you feel you have to do it, I would do it in early spring, as Frank suggested. Second choice for approach grafting would be in fall after the needles harden off, but you’ll need to protect it over the winter and count on a lower success rate.

- S

 

[sorce]

While I think this is the perfect tree to practice grafting on, I also think it @leatherback is right, you shouldn't need to graft this.

In the visible section of what is posted, it seems there is a close trident everywhere, when you reduce those to 2, preferably all in one go, you will definitely get backbuds on those branches.

It may take longer to use the natural backbuds, but that depends on how long it'll take a graft to work.

I personally prefer the natural.

Sorce

 

[markyscott]

you will definitely get backbuds on those branches

I believe that it is very possible you will get back budding. If you do, they will most likely be on last years growth or perhaps two year old growth. Those will not be usable in the final design of your tree. I think it is extremely unlikely that you’ll get backbudding where you need it under 3, 4 or 5 year old bark.

Sorry, but if you want to rehab old pines that have not been properly cared for, you have to learn to graft. It’s not a choice.

- Scott

 

[sorce]

This tree ain't that old.

Backbuds happen behind the cuts Right?

Not up 4 years of new growth you left alone.

The first tridents are well withing useable distance from the trunk to use.

This is a move that should be made anyway.

Might as well make it and see what happens.

Sorce

 

[markyscott]

This tree ain't that old.

Backbuds happen behind the cuts Right?

Not up 4 years of new growth you left alone.

The first tridents are well withing useable distance from the trunk to use.

This is a move that should be made anyway.

Might as well make it and see what happens.

Sorce

I’m really not sure why there is always a debate on the most elementary stuff.

Here’s a branch on his tree:


This branch is 8 years old. I’ve highlighted each of the flushes in magenta and numbered them 0-8. I’ve highlighted each of the nodes between the growth flushes in black and labeled them A-I. Admittedly this is one of the older branches on the tree, but there are many that are at least 4 or 5. I’ve no idea how old the tree is - maybe 20? If you reduce to 2 the 3 shoots at E in the hopes of getting a back bud at node I where it is needed, I believe there is very little hope. There are no needles on 8, so no chance of getting a needle bud anywhere there. Node H is under 9 year old bark - so there is very little chance of getting an adventitious bud. If you do get a back bud, it will be at node E or F, but even that’s under 5 or 6 year old bark and it seems highly unlikely. It’s irrelevant anyway, because a backbud at E or F could not be used. Are the chances zero for getting one a H or I? Probably not, but you’ll have to ask a more experienced Scots pine grower than me. Certainly much smaller than getting one at E or F. I can only tell you that chances would be close to zero on every pine I’ve worked on except for loblollly.

Personally, I would graft two or three scions on the 8 year old wood. I would also prune back hard and use the pruned shoots for scions. If I happened to get a backbud at H or I, I’d consider it a minor miracle, but I’d take it. If not, hopefully one of the grafts would take. I would definitely NOT prune and just hope I got a miracle, but that’s a choice the OP can make.

- S

 

[sorce]

I’m really not sure why there is always a debate on the most elementary stuff.

I wish I would have worded that different, maybe added a sketch, but I have limited bytes.

It's not the elementary stuff I am debating.

It's the actual age of the tree (not that I don't believe your Sketch) and the place we are cutting back to.

I'm still talking about cutting back to the next trident in.

Sorce

 

[markyscott]

I wish I would have worded that different, maybe added a sketch, but I have limited bytes.

It's not the elementary stuff I am debating.

It's the actual age of the tree (not that I don't believe your Sketch) and the place we are cutting back to.

I'm still talking about cutting back to the next trident in.

Sorce

Ok no problem. I think the OP has what is needed to make a decision.

s