woodkraftbonsai
Yamadori
Hah - Yeah good luck with the phone. That's what I'm saying - I tried last fall and really got the run around from people on the phone. I must have called over 15 times and no one could give me a straight answer.
Any yamadori collectors in the Puget Sound area?
- Thread starter Jphipps
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hinmo24t
Masterpiece
youre welcome to burn down innocent ppls buildings or beat them with rocks, or start 'occupy zone' with highest mortality rate of any country in the world within 30 days (per capita), but no, you better not harvest and take care of a wild shrub. fn kooks (not any of you, just sick of things) anyway - that tree you posted is pretty wild!!!! octopuss fir, yewww
gotta get back on this CC stmt now, lotta dependents and gov hacks to support while risking my life (im more concerned w economics to be honest - lotta people will be begging for a 3 day cold and job pretty soon in this country)
@akraftbeer to your above point - they were/are useless before the 'pandemic' , dont expect to get anywhere with the swamp guised as public servants. (im allowed to say this, i worked for the city for 3 years as an account manager and then ran -resigned- to priv sector when i realized id never kiss that much arse or perpetuate such incompetence)
nothing personal to anyone in the public sector - the underlying concepts have to be addressed though $$
gotta get back on this CC stmt now, lotta dependents and gov hacks to support while risking my life (im more concerned w economics to be honest - lotta people will be begging for a 3 day cold and job pretty soon in this country)
@akraftbeer to your above point - they were/are useless before the 'pandemic' , dont expect to get anywhere with the swamp guised as public servants. (im allowed to say this, i worked for the city for 3 years as an account manager and then ran -resigned- to priv sector when i realized id never kiss that much arse or perpetuate such incompetence)
nothing personal to anyone in the public sector - the underlying concepts have to be addressed though $$
woodkraftbonsai
Yamadori
I can definitely appreciate the sentiment towards the public sector, but still would like to collect under the rules. If anyone does have success or any tips, please let me know!
hinmo24t
Masterpiece
tell them youre with anti fa
BrianBay9
Masterpiece
Your political comments would be more appropriate in the Tea House forum.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Sub Alpine Fir. Not one I would choose for collection based on form and size. Strictly based on the topography likely a poor collecting prospect as well. A couple of suggestions from experience. When you are hiking look for areas with more exposed rock and less vigorous forest. Areas that have been exposed to harsh conditions, prevailing winds, heavy snow pack or along obvious game trails. One of the best spots is where bedrock meets to form rock pockets with collections of granite, needles and forest floor debris over time. The best spots also tend to collect rain water and snow melt as it drains away. The trees growing is such sites are typically smaller for their age with greater character from exposure to harsh conditions. Not all of these sites need to be at high elevation, exposed slopes amid canyons are possibilities. Another good spot can be hillocks exposed in alpine bogs, however your collecting skills need to be top notch to successfully remove roots from this environment and adapt them over time for Bonsai pots.
Just some notes to consider in your wandering! best not to go alone and best to take a Garmin or similar gadget! Oh and spare batteries with extra water. LOL
If the area is fairly remote and populated with
parhamr
Omono
Timing and confidence goes a long ways, here. This sort of permit isn’t common and the staff are weary of people violating resource treaties with Native Americans. The permits tend to be issued for two weeks starting from the date of issuance. During the off-season (winter) you’re talking with the regular, permanent staff who might be more aware of how things work. During the mid-year season (late spring to mid fall?) you’re likely talking with seasonal staff who are rusty and generally familiar with only the most common Forest Service routines.
Tell them you’re wanting a “Special Forest Products Permit” for personal use (non-commercial) to harvest seedlings and saplings for transplanting purposes. Tell them exactly where you’re going (so they know it’s not wilderness, park, or otherwise protected land) and exactly which species you’re interested in. The US Forest Service staff will be relieved to know you’re only looking for vine maple, subalpine fir, douglas-fir, hemlock, and/or lodgepole pine. Those are common and not protected.
Don’t bother trying to explain bonsai to them unless they’re really interested. It’s simple to just say it’s for your personal landscaping and you find the process satisfying — even if you’re a weirdo and taking up their time for a free permit. Emphasize that you’re approaching them to do it the right way and make room for them to give you inputs about safety or regulations.
Each ranger district may have some variance on the quantity of trees you can harvest. They may also explicitly define the trees you can take as being less than 4' in height.
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jevanlewis
Yamadori
Here's my experience with trying to get permits last year:
Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest
In one sense, this NF is less restrictive compared with the Mt. Baker NF. In particular, there are no restrictions on tree type except some species can only be dug at certain times of the year. There are also no height limitations.
Links:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/passes-permits/?cid=fsbdev3_053598
The challenge I faced with this NF last year is that based on my calls to multiple district offices, including the HQ office, they weren't issuing permits due to COVID. Apparently, they do studies to identify specific areas in each ranger district in which they will allow transplanting. With COVID, they didn't have the resources to do so.
Mt. Baker National Forest
This NF is more restrictive in tree choice. For conifers, they explicitly say you can transplant Douglas Fir, Red Cedar, and Western Hemlock; they also explicitly say you cannot transplant Mountain Hemlock or Yellow Cedar. Interestingly, they don't say anything about subalpine fir. They also restrict height to 2" (so, if the ranger finds you with something taller, just explain that you plant to it at an angle such that the apex will be 2" or less from the soil line or bring some rebar to bend the trunk
; j/k, I'm not suggesting you do this!). Another restriction with Mt. Baker NF is that trees must be harvested within 50 feet of a forest service road, which limits your options. However, the nice things about Mt. National Forest is there are no limitations on when you can transplant, and you can harvest up to 5 trees for free.
Links:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/passes-permits/forestproducts/?cid=fseprd500021
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/passes-permits/forestproducts/?cid=fseprd500152
Last spring, I was actually able to find someone in Mt. Baker NF who would issue a permit. He also recommended a place with lots of forest service roads: Stampede Pass. Depending on how busy life gets, I'm hoping to head to this area this spring.
Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest
In one sense, this NF is less restrictive compared with the Mt. Baker NF. In particular, there are no restrictions on tree type except some species can only be dug at certain times of the year. There are also no height limitations.
Links:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/passes-permits/?cid=fsbdev3_053598
The challenge I faced with this NF last year is that based on my calls to multiple district offices, including the HQ office, they weren't issuing permits due to COVID. Apparently, they do studies to identify specific areas in each ranger district in which they will allow transplanting. With COVID, they didn't have the resources to do so.
Mt. Baker National Forest
This NF is more restrictive in tree choice. For conifers, they explicitly say you can transplant Douglas Fir, Red Cedar, and Western Hemlock; they also explicitly say you cannot transplant Mountain Hemlock or Yellow Cedar. Interestingly, they don't say anything about subalpine fir. They also restrict height to 2" (so, if the ranger finds you with something taller, just explain that you plant to it at an angle such that the apex will be 2" or less from the soil line or bring some rebar to bend the trunk
; j/k, I'm not suggesting you do this!). Another restriction with Mt. Baker NF is that trees must be harvested within 50 feet of a forest service road, which limits your options. However, the nice things about Mt. National Forest is there are no limitations on when you can transplant, and you can harvest up to 5 trees for free.Links:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/passes-permits/forestproducts/?cid=fseprd500021
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/passes-permits/forestproducts/?cid=fseprd500152
Last spring, I was actually able to find someone in Mt. Baker NF who would issue a permit. He also recommended a place with lots of forest service roads: Stampede Pass. Depending on how busy life gets, I'm hoping to head to this area this spring.
parhamr
Omono
Good info!Here's my experience with trying to get permits last year:
Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest
In one sense, this NF is less restrictive compared with the Mt. Baker NF. In particular, there are no restrictions on tree type except some species can only be dug at certain times of the year. There are also no height limitations.
Links:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/passes-permits/?cid=fsbdev3_053598
The challenge I faced with this NF last year is that based on my calls to multiple district offices, including the HQ office, they weren't issuing permits due to COVID. Apparently, they do studies to identify specific areas in each ranger district in which they will allow transplanting. With COVID, they didn't have the resources to do so.
Mt. Baker National Forest
This NF is more restrictive in tree choice. For conifers, they explicitly say you can transplant Douglas Fir, Red Cedar, and Western Hemlock; they also explicitly say you cannot transplant Mountain Hemlock or Yellow Cedar. Interestingly, they don't say anything about subalpine fir. They also restrict height to 2" (so, if the ranger finds you with something taller, just explain that you plant to it at an angle such that the apex will be 2" or less from the soil line or bring some rebar to bend the trunk
Links:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/passes-permits/forestproducts/?cid=fseprd500021
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/passes-permits/forestproducts/?cid=fseprd500152
Last spring, I was actually able to find someone in Mt. Baker NF who would issue a permit. He also recommended a place with lots of forest service roads: Stampede Pass. Depending on how busy life gets, I'm hoping to head to this area this spring.
For height: two inches or two feet?
That’s definitely one funny thing about the forests or ranger districts — some require you to be close to roads and others require you to be away from them. I don’t understand it but I get they have their plans and justifications
jevanlewis
Yamadori
Good catch! I put the wrong symbol in there! Luckily, it's 2 feet.Good info!
For height: two inches or two feet?
That’s definitely one funny thing about the forests or ranger districts — some require you to be close to roads and others require you to be away from them. I don’t understand it but I get they have their plans and justifications
woodkraftbonsai
Yamadori
Thanks for the very detailed reply. Pretty much the same info that I have gathered as well, just didn’t get lucky in finding someone to give out a permit.Here's my experience with trying to get permits last year:
Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest
In one sense, this NF is less restrictive compared with the Mt. Baker NF. In particular, there are no restrictions on tree type except some species can only be dug at certain times of the year. There are also no height limitations.
Links:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/passes-permits/?cid=fsbdev3_053598
The challenge I faced with this NF last year is that based on my calls to multiple district offices, including the HQ office, they weren't issuing permits due to COVID. Apparently, they do studies to identify specific areas in each ranger district in which they will allow transplanting. With COVID, they didn't have the resources to do so.
Mt. Baker National Forest
This NF is more restrictive in tree choice. For conifers, they explicitly say you can transplant Douglas Fir, Red Cedar, and Western Hemlock; they also explicitly say you cannot transplant Mountain Hemlock or Yellow Cedar. Interestingly, they don't say anything about subalpine fir. They also restrict height to 2" (so, if the ranger finds you with something taller, just explain that you plant to it at an angle such that the apex will be 2" or less from the soil line or bring some rebar to bend the trunk
Links:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/passes-permits/forestproducts/?cid=fseprd500021
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/passes-permits/forestproducts/?cid=fseprd500152
Last spring, I was actually able to find someone in Mt. Baker NF who would issue a permit. He also recommended a place with lots of forest service roads: Stampede Pass. Depending on how busy life gets, I'm hoping to head to this area this spring.
woodkraftbonsai
Yamadori
Tried all of the same tactics and got a range of friendly and unfriendly responses, yet none that seemed knowledgable. Haven’t yet tried this spring though, so maybe I’ll have better luck.
BenBSeattle
Yamadori
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Really great info. I've been itching to go for a couple years now but life and covid got in the way. It'd be fun just to be out in the woods.Here's my experience with trying to get permits last year:
Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest
In one sense, this NF is less restrictive compared with the Mt. Baker NF. In particular, there are no restrictions on tree type except some species can only be dug at certain times of the year. There are also no height limitations.
Links:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/okawen/passes-permits/?cid=fsbdev3_053598
The challenge I faced with this NF last year is that based on my calls to multiple district offices, including the HQ office, they weren't issuing permits due to COVID. Apparently, they do studies to identify specific areas in each ranger district in which they will allow transplanting. With COVID, they didn't have the resources to do so.
Mt. Baker National Forest
This NF is more restrictive in tree choice. For conifers, they explicitly say you can transplant Douglas Fir, Red Cedar, and Western Hemlock; they also explicitly say you cannot transplant Mountain Hemlock or Yellow Cedar. Interestingly, they don't say anything about subalpine fir. They also restrict height to 2" (so, if the ranger finds you with something taller, just explain that you plant to it at an angle such that the apex will be 2" or less from the soil line or bring some rebar to bend the trunk
Links:
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/passes-permits/forestproducts/?cid=fseprd500021
https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/mbs/passes-permits/forestproducts/?cid=fseprd500152
Last spring, I was actually able to find someone in Mt. Baker NF who would issue a permit. He also recommended a place with lots of forest service roads: Stampede Pass. Depending on how busy life gets, I'm hoping to head to this area this spring.
parhamr
Omono
It appears we have a pretty deep snowpack this year and it’s slow to melt. Those recent winter storms really packed a punch!
I haven’t tried, but from what I’ve seen posted by some friends, it appears like it would be hard to get above 4,000 feet right now on forest roads. In 2017 the conditions were similar and I found even in mid May the roads had some packed snow and ice jams that were blocking passage.
I haven’t tried, but from what I’ve seen posted by some friends, it appears like it would be hard to get above 4,000 feet right now on forest roads. In 2017 the conditions were similar and I found even in mid May the roads had some packed snow and ice jams that were blocking passage.
andrewiles
Shohin
Yeah, may be hard this year. But I was at Mission Ridge the other day and saw plenty of larches along the way, at the snow line. On the east side the snow pack is reasonable. I'm hoping to dig one up somewhere this year.
I'm currently on a long-running email thread with some ranger district folks, trying to get a permit. If I do get through I'll ask them to describe the right contacts and process and I'll post here. I think the key is getting the email address of the right person.
Btw, apparently they do not allow collecting of Alpine larches. Just Western.
I'm currently on a long-running email thread with some ranger district folks, trying to get a permit. If I do get through I'll ask them to describe the right contacts and process and I'll post here. I think the key is getting the email address of the right person.
Btw, apparently they do not allow collecting of Alpine larches. Just Western.
woodkraftbonsai
Yamadori
Please do share if you get the right contact. I'm just in Bothell and would love to find someone to collect with too.
Last I called someone, they said to check out Derby Canyon Natives Nursery - they supposedly can give out permits there since the rangers offices are closed.
andrewiles
Shohin
Intriguing. Have you reached out to them yet? If not I'll try it: https://derbycanyonnatives.com/contact-us/.
woodkraftbonsai
Yamadori
I have not yet. I was going to wait until April to start investigating/planning again. If you do call them, please share what they say!
andrewiles
Shohin
Some updates:
1) Derby Canyon Natives doesn't have anything to do with permits.
2) Permits, at least for Chelan, can be purchased starting May 1.
3) They can be purchased over the phone with the target ranger district, but we are still required to visit the ranger station to pick up a physical copy.
4) It does not appear there will be any restrictions on getting the permits, as long as the process is followed.
I asked this in the context of collecting larches. I'm also asking for suggestions from them on the best places to collect these particular trees. I'll update if I hear back.
1) Derby Canyon Natives doesn't have anything to do with permits.
2) Permits, at least for Chelan, can be purchased starting May 1.
3) They can be purchased over the phone with the target ranger district, but we are still required to visit the ranger station to pick up a physical copy.
4) It does not appear there will be any restrictions on getting the permits, as long as the process is followed.
I asked this in the context of collecting larches. I'm also asking for suggestions from them on the best places to collect these particular trees. I'll update if I hear back.
woodkraftbonsai
Yamadori
Thanks for the updates! Funny about Derby Canyon Natives.... as it was someone from the Wenatchee FS office that suggested I call them...
Great to hear there wont be restrictions. Thanks for hard investigative work!
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