Any suggestions on what to do with this Chinese Elm? Im open to drastic changes.

[Deep Sea Diver]

Hmm…. don’t often repost in regards styling suggestions. The reason is a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

IMO this tree will never look good in a bonsai sense with a straight lower section, even slanted, with a reverse tapered sinuous section above it. No imagery will help fix this.

@brentwood suggestion to air layer the develop the top hamper is closest to making a decent two trees out of this tree. It seems an improvement on this thought would be to take it a step further. To make a cut on the top hamper, thereby giving a broom and an incredibly interesting start of another tree.

See below modification.



…and that’s all folks!!!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Cadillactaste]

Hmm…. don’t often repost in regards styling suggestions. The reason is a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

IMO this tree will never look good in a bonsai sense with a straight lower section, even slanted, with a reverse tapered sinuous section above it. No imagery will help fix this.

@brentwood suggestion to air layer the develop the top hamper is closest to making a decent two trees out of this tree. It seems an improvement on this thought would be to take it a step further. To make a cut on the top hamper, thereby giving a broom and an incredibly interesting start of another tree.

See below modification.

View attachment 582890

…and that’s all folks!!!

Cheers
DSD sends

... where there are bends in a trunk. In 2D can give the illusion of inverse taper. Even still... I guess... because of that notion... that is a flaw I can live with. it really doesn't bother me. I guess I've seen so many yamadori over the years with reverse taper. That... it goes away for me unless it's a ginormous bulge. I even went so far to discuss it on my Instagram page. How...it does not typically bother me. I actually feel it's wet behind the ears mentality to focus on it. Again...that is my own thoughts. I do grasp one's can't get past it. I personally... don't bat an eye on that particular flaw overly.

Thing is... I even discuss how flaws were a main focus here on this forum where I cut my teeth. Yeah...to the point I truly couldn't grasp how there was a tree out there plausible for show.

I added Bill Valavanis's book Fine Bonsai to my library...and it was eye opening to me. Among the images... were trees with merit...yet some, had flaws that were apparent. But the tree was lovely as it was shown. That changed my entire perspective... on how I view trees. It may also glean into why I own the trees on my bench...and what I choose over what another may initially overlook.

Edit: Mind you I am far removed from a bonsai community. So my online circle. Is it.

 

[bennybonsai]

Wow that looks great! Okay well I think im going to apartment with keeping the bend. If I don't like it I can allways start again broom style next year or year after. I find it hard to visualise the twigs turning to branches and how they'll look. I've done a lot of research yet still feel I know nothing thanks again for the help

 

[Cadillactaste]

Wow that looks great! Okay well I think im going to apartment with keeping the bend. If I don't like it I can allways start again broom style next year or year after. I find it hard to visualise the twigs turning to branches and how they'll look. I've done a lot of research yet still feel I know nothing thanks again for the help

You'll get there. It's a journey not a sprint.

What I do want you to take from this all is one thing. End of the day. Make sure it's your vision/final image that sets well with you. In whatever direction you take. I say this...because a friend left a big name alter his vision on a tree. Because he couldn't say to the fella. Let me chew it over. He seen that tree as a failure on his part. By not making the one wait. He hadn't seen that direction. He sold the tree later. As he saw it as a weakness in himself by not keeping his vision for the tree. So chew things over...and only move it into a direction you see plausible. Many will offer their guidance. It's not a bad thing. It opens the door to creativity. But follow your gut...in all moves you take with your trees

Enjoy your journey.

 

[bennybonsai]

You'll get there. It's a journey not a sprint.

What I do want you to take from this all is one thing. End of the day. Make sure it's your vision/final image that sets well with you. In whatever direction you take. I say this...because a friend left a big name alter his vision on a tree. Because he couldn't say to the fella. Let me chew it over. He seen that tree as a failure on his part. By not making the one wait. He hadn't seen that direction. He sold the tree later. As he saw it as a weakness in himself by not keeping his vision for the tree. So chew things over...and only move it into a direction you see plausible. Many will offer their guidance. It's not a bad thing. It opens the door to creativity. But follow your gut...in all moves you take with your trees

Enjoy your journey.

That's the best advice I've ever got on here thankyou. I can understand your friend feeling that way to be honest. Im not much into doing everything by the Bonsai book and following every single rule. I do it more for myself and if I think it looks good that's fine for.

But it's great to hear everyone's different opinions and views On everything on here. I learn a lot with every opinion and draw inspiration from them, taking the parts which I like on-board.

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[bennybonsai]

Another thought, you could do a best of both worlds approach, air layer the tree around this brown line suggesting the pot, keep the base for a broom, the curve for the upper section. I feel like there's some reverse taper, this turns it into a second, fat base.
B

Man yeah I really like this idea! 2 trees! There is reverse taper in the bottom curve section too but I don't mind that much. I think it will look good with some growth around it. What time of year can I air layer? Will I have to wait until next spring to chop?

Cheers

 

[bennybonsai]

Hmm…. don’t often repost in regards styling suggestions. The reason is a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

IMO this tree will never look good in a bonsai sense with a straight lower section, even slanted, with a reverse tapered sinuous section above it. No imagery will help fix this.

@brentwood suggestion to air layer the develop the top hamper is closest to making a decent two trees out of this tree. It seems an improvement on this thought would be to take it a step further. To make a cut on the top hamper, thereby giving a broom and an incredibly interesting start of another tree.

See below modification.

View attachment 582890

…and that’s all folks!!!

Cheers
DSD sends

This is the way I'd like to do it! This way I get to keep the lower bends I wanted even if it is a bit bulgey I don't mind. Air layer the red line and keep below. I'll look up air layering techniques now as I've never done it before. Thanks for reposting.

 

[Cadillactaste]

This is the way I'd like to do it! This way I get to keep the lower bends I wanted even if it is a bit bulgey I don't mind. Air layer the red line and keep below. I'll look up air layering techniques now as I've never done it before. Thanks for reposting.

Air layers are easy. I do question if you can set that many on a trunk like that. In one season... that ... I don't know. Or am I confused by how many lines are drawn?

 

[bennybonsai]

There are two branches directly opposite each other just below where I'm going to cut. Should I be cutting closer to the new leader and removing other said branch in the process? Is it not better to cut closer to the new leader anyway so that it eventually merges with the old trunk better? Or just leave the other branch and cut as said before, pruning the major cut every year to merge?

 

[Cadillactaste]

I don't know what you are trying to do? If you plan to set an air layer. I'm not sure now is the appropriate time for it.

But Greg created a really good tutorial/resource on air layers.

Thread 'The science of air-layering'

Apr 2, 2017

Because of the number of questions regarding air-layering on the site, I have attempted to pull together an overview of the science behind air-layering which will directly lead to a list of "best practices" and "frequently asked questions". I am going to try to keep the science really simple (because it gets extremely complicated very quickly) while at the same time ensure that everything I write is scientifically grounded.

Introduction
Air-layering as a way of propagating bonsai material that has some unique advantages. First, the material being layered is a genetic clone...

• Bonsai Nut
• Replies: 228
• Forum: Grafting, layering & propagating

• 
• 

 

[bennybonsai]

I don't know what you are trying to do? If you plan to set an air layer. I'm not sure now is the appropriate time for it.

But Greg created a really good tutorial/resource on air layers.

Thread 'The science of air-layering'

Apr 2, 2017

Because of the number of questions regarding air-layering on the site, I have attempted to pull together an overview of the science behind air-layering which will directly lead to a list of "best practices" and "frequently asked questions". I am going to try to keep the science really simple (because it gets extremely complicated very quickly) while at the same time ensure that everything I write is scientifically grounded.

Introduction
Air-layering as a way of propagating bonsai material that has some unique advantages. First, the material being layered is a genetic clone...

• Bonsai Nut
• Replies: 228
• Forum: Grafting, layering & propagating

• 
• 

If i didnt air layer. The original plan was to cut above the branch that is to right of the red cut line. I was just thinking cutting closer to the new leader would look better in the long run as the cut would merge with new leader easier. Or can I cut/shape the knub that would be left later. Blue drawing would be new leader. I'm just over thinking everything now.

 

[bennybonsai]

This is where I was going to cut before and may still do. As I said I'm over thinking

 

[Shibui]

There are two branches directly opposite each other just below where I'm going to cut. Should I be cutting closer to the new leader and removing other said branch in the process? Is it not better to cut closer to the new leader anyway so that it eventually merges with the old trunk better? Or just leave the other branch and cut as said before, pruning the major cut every year to merge?

If you don't plan any of the layers suggested then, yes, cut close to the branch that will become the new trunk line. I've rarely has good result by leaving an opposite branch. That usually causes overthickening as the chop heals. It may seem to leave an open space opposite the bend to the new trunk but usually there will be new buds around the edges of the chop. One of those will become your side branch without the problems of bulge and starting a small branch means it will be less likely to become thicker than the new leader.
Red line in post #29 is how I would cut.


Even if you layer above those branches, at some stag you'll need to complete the chop close to that new leader. The other branch seems to have an odd angle so unlikely to become a good extension of the trunk below it.

What I do want you to take from this all is one thing. End of the day. Make sure it's your vision/final image that sets well with you. In whatever direction you take. I say this...because a friend left a big name alter his vision on a tree. Because he couldn't say to the fella. Let me chew it over. He seen that tree as a failure on his part. By not making the one wait. He hadn't seen that direction. He sold the tree later. As he saw it as a weakness in himself by not keeping his vision for the tree. So chew things over...and only move it into a direction you see plausible. Many will offer their guidance. It's not a bad thing. It opens the door to creativity. But follow your gut...in all moves you take with your trees

Definitely take note of these comments.
Internet advice based on a couple of 2D photos is rarely the best advice because we can't see 3D movement of trunks and branches. Always consider the results of advice with the tree in 3D before slavishly following any advice. Only follow any styling advice if you are fully comfortable that the result will please YOU.

 

[bennybonsai]

If you don't plan any of the layers suggested then, yes, cut close to the branch that will become the new trunk line. I've rarely has good result by leaving an opposite branch. That usually causes overthickening as the chop heals. It may seem to leave an open space opposite the bend to the new trunk but usually there will be new buds around the edges of the chop. One of those will become your side branch without the problems of bulge and starting a small branch means it will be less likely to become thicker than the new leader.
Red line in post #29 is how I would cut.


Even if you layer above those branches, at some stag you'll need to complete the chop close to that new leader. The other branch seems to have an odd angle so unlikely to become a good extension of the trunk below it.



Definitely take note of these comments.
Internet advice based on a couple of 2D photos is rarely the best advice because we can't see 3D movement of trunks and branches. Always consider the results of advice with the tree in 3D before slavishly following any advice. Only follow any styling advice if you are fully comfortable that the result will please YOU.

Great to hear! Thanks Shibui.

 

[Cadillactaste]

That's the best advice I've ever got on here thankyou. I can understand your friend feeling that way to be honest. Im not much into doing everything by the Bonsai book and following every single rule. I do it more for myself and if I think it looks good that's fine for.

But it's great to hear everyone's different opinions and views On everything on here. I learn a lot with every opinion and draw inspiration from them, taking the parts which I like on-board.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Quite welcome. Best of luck to ya.

 

[bennybonsai]

If you don't plan any of the layers suggested then, yes, cut close to the branch that will become the new trunk line. I've rarely has good result by leaving an opposite branch. That usually causes overthickening as the chop heals. It may seem to leave an open space opposite the bend to the new trunk but usually there will be new buds around the edges of the chop. One of those will become your side branch without the problems of bulge and starting a small branch means it will be less likely to become thicker than the new leader.
Red line in post #29 is how I would cut.


Even if you layer above those branches, at some stag you'll need to complete the chop close to that new leader. The other branch seems to have an odd angle so unlikely to become a good extension of the trunk below it.



Definitely take note of these comments.
Internet advice based on a couple of 2D photos is rarely the best advice because we can't see 3D movement of trunks and branches. Always consider the results of advice with the tree in 3D before slavishly following any advice. Only follow any styling advice if you are fully comfortable that the result will please YOU.

Could I make the cut now and then repot start of March? Or should I do it all in one?

 

[Shibui]

Could I make the cut now and then repot start of March? Or should I do it all in one?

I can't see any problem with cutting now and repotting in a few weeks. No real advantage but no problem either.
Can't comment on the appropriate time to repot Chinese elm in Surrey though. I seem to get better results with Chinese elm repots a bit later rather than when it's still cold, even thought they tend to start growing from mid winter down here.

 

[bennybonsai]

Okay cheers Shibui. I'm pretty sure mine started growing in March last year.

 

[bennybonsai]

I don't have any cut paste so will wait. Do I need to leave a couple of cm from new leader when I cut main trunk for die back?

 

[Shibui]

I cut Chinese elm right where I want the final cut. If you cut it long the stump will die back to the join but if you cut right there it will just start healing right away.