Beat me to it.
Another Mirai Tree Sale in a few days
- Thread starter rockm
- Start date
Maiden69
Masterpiece
I agree with those statements, but the problem is that a lot of times it is true. Mirai is special, so special that Bjorn started his own version. Before Mirai, you had to stay hours on a forum to wait for answers, and a lot of time, you had to swim though a dozen of posts trying to figure out what is right and what was not. In Mirai you can just type a question, and he will give you an answer live. It's like having a live version of Bonsai Nut but with one professional, showing you and giving you advise. I think the other way to get that would be by doing a zoom session with some of the resident experts here.
There is a lot of information that he puts out, that I have not seen anywhere, granted I am fairly new to this art. I have seen all the videos that Bjorn put out on YouTube before deciding to join Mirai, and there is a crap load more info in Mirai than in his old videos.
To be fair to your statement there you have to put both into the same "context". If you place Mirai's mini-streams and Feature videos they are on the same quality. Bjorn is awesome at producing his videos, the videos done from Japan, while raw, they were very well done. Mirai live stream tend to be chaotic at some times, but remember that he is thinking about what he is doing, while listening for the question and spitting out a concise answer while cutting, wiring, repotting a tree. I have no idea how he can do that, there has been a few "oh shit" moments when he gets involved in the question/answer and cuts the wrong stuff, or that the question is so involving that he stops working to answer it, but those are not the norm.
I think Mirai has done a great service to the community, directly or indirectly. And the way he talks to beginners with sticks in pots is not the way an elitist talk to people. I don't think I have ever seen him being rude to anyone. Extremely confident to the point of being cocky, yes... but that comes with his knowledge. The fact that he gives props to others shows that, he has mentioned Sergio quite a few times on the streams while doing work on deciduous, and about other artists. He don't support the hedge method Walter uses, yet I have never heard him talk bad against it like some other Artist have done. An elitist will never do that.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
let me fix or add to that - unwarranted, unfounded, unsubstantiatedIf you throw out unsolicited opinions about people you should expect that back
Scorpius
Chumono
I personally watch his videos. I don't spout out nonsense.
The comparing of different professionals is just silly and a pointless pissing match to be sure. Just be happy you have the resources in these folks that you have and relax. Furthermore, crapping on somebody who you don’t know for some imaginary reason is juvenile at best… as the adage goes; if you don’t have something nice to say about somebody just keep it to yourself.
Wood
Chumono
I think I might not have expressed myself clearly, but you make good points
I thought you need to pay for the pro membership to watch the live Q&As? I'm a little fuzzy on the Mirai video categories
Mirai's mini-streams and feature videos are similar to Bjorn's free YouTube videos, right?
I meant to say that I find Bjorn's paid Bonsai-U lectures/demonstrations more useful than the full Mirai Live streams. That's where the majority of Ryan's info is conveyed, but looking up a specific horticultural practice he mentioned is difficult because the videos are so long and poorly organized
I thought you need to pay for the pro membership to watch the live Q&As? I'm a little fuzzy on the Mirai video categories
Mirai's mini-streams and feature videos are similar to Bjorn's free YouTube videos, right?
I meant to say that I find Bjorn's paid Bonsai-U lectures/demonstrations more useful than the full Mirai Live streams. That's where the majority of Ryan's info is conveyed, but looking up a specific horticultural practice he mentioned is difficult because the videos are so long and poorly organized
Maiden69
Masterpiece
They at times do it through YouTube as well, but to ask questions you have to have a paid subscription.
No, they are comparable to his Bonsai-U material. They are not live, they are pre-recorded and very well edited.
I don't have Bonsai-U as my budget allows for one or the other. I did the 30 day free trial and decided to stay because of the material. Maybe once Bjorn have the same amount of videos I may join there as well.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Marketing is a specialty of Mirai, however, the place IS special if you look around. Not many, if any, comparable bonsai nurseries in the U.S. selling high end, ancient and old trees. You can count the competition on one hand, or half a hand (purpose-built, intricately landscaped facility that covers acres of land, accompanied by a pervasive online presence) Not many others doing that, Bjorn maybe, but his operation is not as big or as slick. Bill Valavanis doesn't sell massive 1,000 year old collected junipers.
Like it or not, Mirai sets a bar for U.S. bonsai. Has since the initial 2015 Artisans Cup. I was pretty skeptical at first back in 2015, and I still have a hard time seeing some of the value in SOME of his trees. I also get dizzy looking at some of the prices for some of the things he's selling (knowing the mark up), but, I give credit where credit is due. He knows WTF he's doing with marketing and trees.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
FWIW, this article in a 2017 Architectural Digest ( the guy knows his market and audience), explains his approach--
AD: Do you still collect your own trees?
RN: There’s a whole community around me. We have students from 17 countries and clients in almost every state in the country. I started seeking out people who could collect trees better than I ever could. I started seeking out ceramists and woodworkers who could create the platforms I would be displaying the trees on.
AD: And how do you determine the value of your trees, which sell for $2,500 to $750,000 each?
RN: I’m actually working with an economics professor at the University of Missouri on whether or not you can develop some sort of algorithm that can compute value based on certain criteria and categories. Those pieces that sell for a really high dollar hold the most value characteristics of that species and possess those in the highest form, and then the design that’s been invested and put into that tree also maximizes its aesthetic capacity to be as engaging and interesting and beautiful as it possibly can. And then the ceramics that hold it also have that same level of investment. We have ceramic containers alone that are $15,000 to $20,000.
AD: What kind of clientele do you have?
RN: Our client list is starting to become extremely exclusive, but inside of that we have to sign nondisclosures. We live in Amazon country, Microsoft country, Nike country, Adidas country, and William Kennedy country, so the client list is pretty rich up here. We also have strong connections in Florida, New York, Texas, and the Bay Area. All of the trees we sell are trees that have to exist outdoors. I have a client that lives in Manhattan in an I.M. Pei building, and he’s got marble shelves that face a mitered-corner glass window. So there are clients that have found situations where they’re capable of cultivating these indoors, but it’s an extremely challenging thing to do. We also end up potentially designing the space in which their trees are held.
www.architecturaldigest.com
AD: Do you still collect your own trees?
RN: There’s a whole community around me. We have students from 17 countries and clients in almost every state in the country. I started seeking out people who could collect trees better than I ever could. I started seeking out ceramists and woodworkers who could create the platforms I would be displaying the trees on.
AD: And how do you determine the value of your trees, which sell for $2,500 to $750,000 each?
RN: I’m actually working with an economics professor at the University of Missouri on whether or not you can develop some sort of algorithm that can compute value based on certain criteria and categories. Those pieces that sell for a really high dollar hold the most value characteristics of that species and possess those in the highest form, and then the design that’s been invested and put into that tree also maximizes its aesthetic capacity to be as engaging and interesting and beautiful as it possibly can. And then the ceramics that hold it also have that same level of investment. We have ceramic containers alone that are $15,000 to $20,000.
AD: What kind of clientele do you have?
RN: Our client list is starting to become extremely exclusive, but inside of that we have to sign nondisclosures. We live in Amazon country, Microsoft country, Nike country, Adidas country, and William Kennedy country, so the client list is pretty rich up here. We also have strong connections in Florida, New York, Texas, and the Bay Area. All of the trees we sell are trees that have to exist outdoors. I have a client that lives in Manhattan in an I.M. Pei building, and he’s got marble shelves that face a mitered-corner glass window. So there are clients that have found situations where they’re capable of cultivating these indoors, but it’s an extremely challenging thing to do. We also end up potentially designing the space in which their trees are held.
Meet the Man Who Grows Mini Million-Dollar Trees
Having honed his bonsai skills under a master in Japan, American Ryan Neil has taken his practice Stateside to wild (and lucrative) acclaim
Colorado
Masterpiece
$750,000 …. Guess the Tree Sale was a bargain! 
BillsBayou
Chumono
Shilling might involve links. You're making good points about Bjorn. But without links, I have no way of knowing this.
I make it a point not to search the Internet to make other people's points.
BillsBayou
Chumono
This is hilarious. There must be a word to describe this type of self-referential writing. There are probably two words depending on the intent of the writer. For now I only see two intents.
First would be where the writer is being sarcastic or sardonic. He has taken offense and is replying with scorn and derision mocking his opponent. It could be read aloud in serious tones with short staccato syllables. "Sure." comes out with a bang. "I'm cynical and lazy." comes across bruskly and with a mocking tone. "Right......" a sharp word followed by a pause. "Thanks pal." is dismissive.
Second would be if the writer is making a joke. The post looks like the first example, but is written with the very characteristics he is accused of using. The statement just so happens to be a cynical and lazy post. Very few words. Only one complete sentence. The whole thing could be read aloud in a sarcastic tone with an eye-roll. It would be self-deprecating and humorous.
BillsBayou
Chumono
If he comes up with an accurate algorithm to compute value based on certain criteria and categories, he'd win a Nobel Prize in economics. Any algorithm that could calculate value on an artistic representation would destroy the Von Neumann structure of computers.
The Most Valued Characteristics Of A Species
For each and every species, certain characteristics elevate its value. We would need to have committees examining every aspect of every species of tree. Black pines have old cracked bark. Hmmmm... what does it mean when you say "old" or "cracked"? Once you're done figure out the meaning and variable value of a characteristic, you move to the next. But when we look at a maple, nearly everything we can say about a black pine is thrown out the window. I'm not building a database of values, I'm building a neural network of value-nodes.
Possessing Those Characteristics In The Highest Form
We've identified the most valued characteristics of a black pine, but how do we quantify their value in an algorithm. What increases the value of old cracked looking bark? Number of crevasses? Number of visible layers? Are all lower layers larger than the ones on top of them? What does any of that mean?
The Design That Has Been Put Into The Tree
Here we are maximizing the tree's aesthetic capacity. I can see how maximizing anything desirable would increase value. I don't know how to measure the capacity of an aesthetic. On an azalea, it might be when the tree is in bloom, you can't even see the pot for all the flowers erupting from the tree.
To Be As Engaging And Interesting and Beautiful As It Possibly Can
We're into some seriously fuzzy Boolean logic here.
In each of these areas, there is marketing. You need to tell the consumer what the most valuable characteristics of a species can be. "See how the roots are gripping the soil? You don't find that on many trees. Let me tell you why this is important. Let me tell you why these roots exist in their highest form. Let me tell you how well we hit the mark on developing this tree into its target design." Then you surround the tree with the Swedish Bikini Team and a George Thorgood background track to make it as engaging and interesting and beautiful as it can possibly be.
What do I think it is? Develop your market. Advance your position in the market. Survey the market. Then slap a price you think will move your widgets off the shelf while maximizing profits (intersection of supply and demand curves). If you run out of widgets in the first hour, you were priced well below market value. Keep developing the market and get your next batch of widgets out there ASAP. At some point you'll either find a price that keeps the widgets moving off the shelf, or you'll find a price that sells them out so quick that your widgets have an exclusivity to them.
I want to read that economics book so bad.
Shogun610
Masterpiece
Had to look them up haha
Scorpius
Chumono
"Men of few words are the best men."
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Welp, I guess it was time to use the "I" button...
You should sell that to Lin Miranda to use in his next Broadway show... freaking hilarious!
Had a Mel Gibson What Women Want flashback there...
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
It's easy (and fun) to take shots at Mirai's approach, but basically they're trying to reach some form of consistent evaluation for a given tree, as opposed to the completely arbitrary approach that is the norm for buying and selling bonsai in the U.S. Getting to that consistent evaluation COULD help more than Mirai. It could help answer the "why is that effing tree SOOOOOO expensive? I have one JUST LIKE IT in my backyard" questions in the larger bonsai community. Having a consistent formula to measure trees could help more than just Ryan.
Of course, applying mathematical equations to art is always shaky. Most good art has intangible factors that can't be, or consistently, be measured.
In the end, a tree is worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for it, but having a yardstick that helps quantify a tree's attributes in several critical categories could, at least, get a more reasoned assessment on whether that price is realistic.
Could also be useless.
Shogun610
Masterpiece
Here’s the equationIt's easy (and fun) to take shots at Mirai's approach, but basically they're trying to reach some form of consistent evaluation for a given tree, as opposed to the completely arbitrary approach that is the norm for buying and selling bonsai in the U.S. Getting to that consistent evaluation COULD help more than Mirai. It could help answer the "why is that effing tree SOOOOOO expensive? I have one JUST LIKE IT in my backyard" questions in the larger bonsai community. Having a consistent formula to measure trees could help more than just Ryan.
Of course, applying mathematical equations to art is always shaky. Most good art has intangible factors that can't be, or consistently, be measured.
In the end, a tree is worth whatever anyone is willing to pay for it, but having a yardstick that helps quantify a tree's attributes in several critical categories could, at least, get a more reasoned assessment on whether that price is realistic.
Could also be useless.
Value = A+ABc+R(n) +B(n)+ Base(in”) + Height(in”) + Style(L*W*H)+ Container (L*W*H) +Ceramicist(age , material , cost) / 2.
A=Age
ABc= Age in bonsai container
R=ramification (number of ramifications) per branch
B= Number Branches
Base= Base of nebari
Height
Style (length , width, heigh of silhouette)
Container size
Ceramicist = ceramicist ( age , material ,cost ) can be also applied to a stone slab
namnhi
Masterpiece
You missed one important variable - Artist name. That is weighted at 70% of the price... everything else is 30%.
Shogun610
Masterpiece
No that could be applied toward any tree. but I guess multiplying the price *70% and adding that to the value would be marked value if done by artist
Last edited:
