Akadama vs Turface vs Pumice

[sdavis]

I have been reading a lot here about akadama, Turface MVP, and pumice. Lots of opinions have been expressed.
About a year ago I put equal volumes of each material in separate plastic jars and put them under my deck in the shade in central Oregon.
I opened them today, June 21, 2014. Photos are attached; akadama, pumice, turface in order left to right.
My estimate is that 99% of the pumice is intact, 95% of the Turface is intact, and 5% of the akadama is intact. The akadama was high quality and was purchased from a Japan-trained artist in Oregon.
Any thoughts?

 

[dick benbow]

first and foremost, kudos for having an inquisitive mind. Most folks ask on a chatline and take what is given as gospel with no other inclinations to spend some time looking into it.

That said, pumice is made from a volcanic action involving heat and just does not wear down very fast. The other man made material also goes thru a heated process.

That brings us to what is basically japanese earth. Red balls of it according to japanese translation. It is known to break down Some versions have been baked hard and do last
better then non treated.

Turface I have never used no have any knowledge gained from having used it. Akadama and pummice are a staple to my soil configuration here in the NW. (seattle) We get so much moisture that I need a soil that is 2 parts drainage and only one part moisture retentive. My third ingredient is volcanic rock.

The retailer I purchase my soil from has been put on notice from the feds that he can't bring in my favorite soils from japan anymore. something about leaves and sticks that could carry something harmfull to our environment. I mention this only because it makes me pay double to get it from other ports (shipping) so I can continue with a proven project. If this continues elsewhere as i think it would we need an alternative to japanese soil and hence my kudos to someone questioning soil and wanting to learn more about it's components.

was out your way last weekend and picked up what I believe is lodgepole pine. It's in nursery mix (yuk) and am looking forward to potting it next march in proper soil.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Did you add water to the jars before you set them under the deck last year? Any akadama can be made into a mud ball if you soak in water and squeeze. What does it look like if you pour some that hasn't been squeezed out onto a screen and allow it to dry?

I've had a couple dozen bags of akadama under my porch for years and it's all perfectly intact; actually outlasting the bags they're in. However, if I soak some in water it can be made into a mud ball in minutes. That's simply the nature of akadama...unfired balls of clay that can dissolve or crumble...or make very happy roots if used properly!

 

[KennedyMarx]

Akadama does break down, but it's not exactly the terrible thing that it's made out to be. As the roots colonize the pot they grow into the akadama and that extra moisture retention from the broken down akadama is a good thing. Plus akadama's ability for the roots to grow through means that more of the space in the pot is available for root growth. If you google you can find a Peter Tea blog post about akadama break down.

I don't think Turface is the devil it's been made out to be lately, but it's not gods gift to bonsai either. Pumice on the other hand is definitely the bees knees.

Just my $.02

 

[RKatzin]

I only have $.01, but I'd like to throw in in the pot for what it's worth.

I've never seen or used akadama, but going by the quite a bit I hear about it, I would venture that with pumice and akadama you have two very simialr substrates and turface is very different.

Both akadama and pumice are natural and both behave much the same way, breaking down slowing as roots penetrate, good absorbtion rates and retention, all that very similar. Both behave well in the pot. I mean they are coarse granules and mix well with other ingredients without seperating when you water. Once a tree is set in either the stuff locks down and stays in place. Both are acceptable with organic fertilizers.

Ok, now take all that away for turface. I have repotted trees that were in turface and when the container is removed it all falls away, not a bit of roots penetrating the turface. Thats ok, makes repot a snap, but I don't like it.

My main issue is that turface has a smoothe surface and does not cling together or to other players in the container and it will not stay put. It shifts all over and the organic matter seperates from it, floating up and the turface settles in forming pockets of turface here and organic there. I think we all know what happens when you hit turface with poop or fish emulsion.

I am currently swapping out the turface in my pots and boxes with pumice. I'm back filling with pumice and mixing it into the turface to get down to less than 20% turface. What a difference! I already see marked improvement in trees I did a week ago.

I might go with akadama if I could get it, but looks like that's less likely now than it was, unless you know anyone with a dozen bags stashed under their porch who might want to trade across for some pumice. My $.01, Rick

 

[Poink88]

Akadama does break down, but it's not exactly the terrible thing that it's made out to be. ....

I don't think Turface is the devil it's been made out to be lately, but it's not gods gift to bonsai either.

True...I'll add that Oil Dri is same. It is dubbed as the Devil and the worst but I honestly am re-introducing a little (sifted 5%-10%) of it to my mix now. It really helps even out the moisture and drying for some reason...probably in the same way akadama does.

The quest and experiments continues...

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

akadama

soils used: akadama 100% for non conifers, when i don't need a lot of growth. 70% akadama and 30% pumice i like more. conifers: 50% akadama, 50% pumice or more. hard akadama is hard to break between your fingers when dry. Lots of difference in quality. When wet it breaks faster. Akadama tends to break down over a period of 5 years, in 3 years when frequent frost while wet. By that time 50% of akadama is "dust" and for a big part replaced with roots. Adjust watering with your changing soil mix. Mostly you expect less vigour when your tree is 5 years in the pot. When developping young material you repot more frequent, sometimes i repot every year, very few dust is visible and i re-use the same mix.

 

[sdavis]

Did you add water to the jars before you set them under the deck last year? Any akadama can be made into a mud ball if you soak in water and squeeze. What does it look like if you pour some that hasn't been squeezed out onto a screen and allow it to dry?

I've had a couple dozen bags of akadama under my porch for years and it's all perfectly intact; actually outlasting the bags they're in. However, if I soak some in water it can be made into a mud ball in minutes. That's simply the nature of akadama...unfired balls of clay that can dissolve or crumble...or make very happy roots if used properly!

Yes, the jars were filled with water.

 

[sdavis]

first and foremost, kudos for having an inquisitive mind. Most folks ask on a chatline and take what is given as gospel with no other inclinations to spend some time looking into it.

That said, pumice is made from a volcanic action involving heat and just does not wear down very fast. The other man made material also goes thru a heated process.

That brings us to what is basically japanese earth. Red balls of it according to japanese translation. It is known to break down Some versions have been baked hard and do last
better then non treated.

Turface I have never used no have any knowledge gained from having used it. Akadama and pummice are a staple to my soil configuration here in the NW. (seattle) We get so much moisture that I need a soil that is 2 parts drainage and only one part moisture retentive. My third ingredient is volcanic rock.

The retailer I purchase my soil from has been put on notice from the feds that he can't bring in my favorite soils from japan anymore. something about leaves and sticks that could carry something harmfull to our environment. I mention this only because it makes me pay double to get it from other ports (shipping) so I can continue with a proven project. If this continues elsewhere as i think it would we need an alternative to japanese soil and hence my kudos to someone questioning soil and wanting to learn more about it's components.

was out your way last weekend and picked up what I believe is lodgepole pine. It's in nursery mix (yuk) and am looking forward to potting it next march in proper soil.

I saw your post and I think it is a lodgepole (Pinus contorta var murrayana).

 

[sdavis]

Did you add water to the jars before you set them under the deck last year? Any akadama can be made into a mud ball if you soak in water and squeeze. What does it look like if you pour some that hasn't been squeezed out onto a screen and allow it to dry?

I've had a couple dozen bags of akadama under my porch for years and it's all perfectly intact; actually outlasting the bags they're in. However, if I soak some in water it can be made into a mud ball in minutes. That's simply the nature of akadama...unfired balls of clay that can dissolve or crumble...or make very happy roots if used properly!

As you requested, I dried out the akadama and screened it thru a 1/32 screen. I ended up with a 1/2 cup of dried akadama from the 4 cups I put into the jar. Most of the akadama (7/8ths) broke down into mud and silt. Seems like with even high quality akadama you have to watch for breakdown. This stuff was quite broken down after 12 months.

 

[coh]

Yeah, but you had it sitting in a jar of water for 12 months. That does not really represent the environment inside a bonsai pot.

A better evaluation would result from filling a bonsai pot with the akadama, and then subjecting it to the same exact conditions as the rest of your trees. Same amount of watering, same amount of exposure (if any) to winter freezing, etc. Even that won't be a perfect comparison because there won't be any roots removing moisture from the akadama, but it's got to be better than leaving it sitting in a jar full of water.

Chris

 

[heisenberg]

Is there any purpose in using both pumice and lava/scoria or do they achieve the same purpose?

 

[Eric Group]

Is there any purpose in using both pumice and lava/scoria or do they achieve the same purpose?

Lava is heavier and more pourous than pumice. Besides that I suppose their functionality in a soil mix is similar.

 

[eferguson1974]

Why bother with all this, or buying Japanese dirt when Napa 8822 works? And is there no place in the world with dirt like Japan has? Sure you can spend a lot on their dirt because of tradition. But maybe they just use what they have and its not the best for the purpose. Its just whats in the yard. Im using gravel that will outlast all of us and the trees I planted in it. And my trees are growing fine. I cant imagine them doing much better in Japanese soil, even if I could get some here. Surely someone will say Im a heathen, using gravel for bonsai is like putting catchup on sushi. But its working and cost less than even shipping something from Japan.
We always read about how the Japs use akadama. What do the Chinese or other bonsaiing asian places use? Taiwan, Viet Nam and others make some great bonsai. But whats in their pots?

 

[Eric Group]

Why bother with all this, or buying Japanese dirt when Napa 8822 works? And is there no place in the world with dirt like Japan has? Sure you can spend a lot on their dirt because of tradition. But maybe they just use what they have and its not the best for the purpose. Its just whats in the yard. Im using gravel that will outlast all of us and the trees I planted in it. And my trees are growing fine. I cant imagine them doing much better in Japanese soil, even if I could get some here. Surely someone will say Im a heathen, using gravel for bonsai is like putting catchup on sushi. But its working and cost less than even shipping something from Japan.
We always read about how the Japs use akadama. What do the Chinese or other bonsaiing asian places use? Taiwan, Viet Nam and others make some great bonsai. But whats in their pots?

Most pumice we use in the states is not from Japan according to what I know of it. Lava rock could be I suppose, but most is probably not from Japan either. AKADAMA is unique in it's ability to break down progressively over time and provide what the tree needs at different times... But I just use that stuff because others said it worked well, I tried it and they were right. I used to use turface a whole bunch, mixed with pine bark and pumice and that is an ok mix, was good when that was all I could afford/ find... but I have seen better health since switching to "Boone's Mix" and I am refining my mix to suit different trees now- Kanuma instead of pumic for azaleas, more Akadama for trees that like to be wetter... I am also sourcing particles of a more uniformed size... Trying to nail down what works the best for me and where to get it...

IOW, To keep with your analogy, you "CAN" eat sushi with ketchup if that is all you have, but why would you if soy is better? Would I rather get sushi from the grocery store or from my favorite sushi restaurant up the road? The restaurant of course! Why? They are both "sushi".... Right?

"Gravel" generally is "river rock" broken down and weathered to a smooth texture. This is inferior to Lava, Pumice... Which are porous and have irregular shapes which means it allows for more spaces between particles, more air... Better roots... Better especially for trees we are trying to force into created fine mats of roots that can support large trees in tiny pots. Better ingredients= better results... In food and bonsai soil! Will your trees LIVE/ GROW in gravel? Yeah, sure if you care for them well they probably will. Would they do better in a better mix? Absolutely. Choice is yours man.., do you want to buy your sushi from the grocery and out ketchup on it? Fine... Enjoy that!
I cannot find these soil ingredients locally either, and have to get them shipped to me... Only recently did I finally decide to pony up the money required to get the good sushi.

 

[Potawatomi13]

You live in heart of best substrate of all: pumice. Kakadama is waste of money and turface not really better. You can get pumice very cheap or free so why not use the best of all?

 

[heisenberg]

Do you think a 50/50 mix of pumice/lava would do fine? Any need to include some organic substrate or just keep well fertilised? My bonsai is a young cypress so needs lots of drainage

 

[eferguson1974]

Most pumice we use in the states is not from Japan according to what I know of it. Lava rock could be I suppose, but most is probably not from Japan either. AKADAMA is unique in it's ability to break down progressively over time and provide what the tree needs at different times... But I just use that stuff because others said it worked well, I tried it and they were right. I used to use turface a whole bunch, mixed with pine bark and pumice and that is an ok mix, was good when that was all I could afford/ find... but I have seen better health since switching to "Boone's Mix" and I am refining my mix to suit different trees now- Kanuma instead of pumic for azaleas, more Akadama for trees that like to be wetter... I am also sourcing particles of a more uniformed size... Trying to nail down what works the best for me and where to get it...

IOW, To keep with your analogy, you "CAN" eat sushi with ketchup if that is all you have, but why would you if soy is better? Would I rather get sushi from the grocery store or from my favorite sushi restaurant up the road? The restaurant of course! Why? They are both "sushi".... Right?

"Gravel" generally is "river rock" broken down and weathered to a smooth texture. This is inferior to Lava, Pumice... Which are porous and have irregular shapes which means it allows for more spaces between particles, more air... Better roots... Better especially for trees we are trying to force into created fine mats of roots that can support large trees in tiny pots. Better ingredients= better results... In food and bonsai soil! Will your trees LIVE/ GROW in gravel? Yeah, sure if you care for them well they probably will. Would they do better in a better mix? Absolutely. Choice is yours man.., do you want to buy your sushi from the grocery and out ketchup on it? Fine... Enjoy that!
I cannot find these soil ingredients locally either, and have to get them shipped to me... Only recently did I finally decide to pony up the money required to get the good sushi.

I love sushi, made by japs and with wasabi. But just like japanese dirt, I couldnt find it here even if I could afford it. I use builder's gravel and my trees are growing. Id use 8822 but its as common as akadama here. So I wont be able to try either. But builders gravel (not river gravel) is working.
Aaahhhh, soil wars, what would we we argue about without them?

 

[drew33998]

It's all about your local climate and your watering practices. I would venture to say that most any combination can be used. I for one wouldn't want to use gravel in my climate. I would be watering 3 times a day. Oil dry is cheap and has to be in a colander or a pot with a ton of holes otherwise it turns into an impermeable mass of clay in my climate with my watering. I do like adding lava rock and or zeolite to oil dry. I also have a boxwood that likes to be dry in 100 percent zeolite that is doing well going into the second year.

 

[heisenberg]

Does anyone have experience with cocopeat/coir pellets as an organic soil component?
Shown here:
http://www.bunnings.co.nz/romberg-coir-pellets_p00234891