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Yamadori
I've been using lava, pumice and Calidama this year for my repotting, also a little charcoal. So far so good.
Akadama vs. Pumice vs. Lava Rock
- Thread starter Redwood Ryan
- Start date
jeanluc83
Omono
I used drystall last year and was very happy with it. The particle size is somewhat small. On par with turface.
If you want to get pumice consider getting it by the ton as a group buy. I'm sure that there are enough people in the Rochester area that would be interested. It might take some foot work on your end but based on my experience last year with drystall it is worth the effort.
Or try ordering a pallet of drystall direct. They may be more willing to work with you if it is a worthwhile order.
Is there anyone out there using expanded shale? There is a manufacturer in Cohoes, NY. They are marketing their product for light weight concrete but also as a soil additive and green roofs. http://www.norliteagg.com/
I drive past their facility when I visit my parents. I might have to stop in and get some to try the next time through.
If you want to get pumice consider getting it by the ton as a group buy. I'm sure that there are enough people in the Rochester area that would be interested. It might take some foot work on your end but based on my experience last year with drystall it is worth the effort.
Or try ordering a pallet of drystall direct. They may be more willing to work with you if it is a worthwhile order.
Is there anyone out there using expanded shale? There is a manufacturer in Cohoes, NY. They are marketing their product for light weight concrete but also as a soil additive and green roofs. http://www.norliteagg.com/
I drive past their facility when I visit my parents. I might have to stop in and get some to try the next time through.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
There are two types of Akadama right? High fired seems to be harder, hold up longer and hold less water I guess? I have some that is NOT high fired and it breaks down almost immediately it seems after being watered... Or rather it Will break down after being watered if you so much as brush your finger across it...
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Well which is it? Watering breaks it down, or touching it after watering breaks it down? Because, breaking down is exactly what akadama is supposed to do, but if your watering breaks it down, check your water pressure or habits. If touching it breaks it down, yeah...stop playing with it!
This is labeled as HARD AKADAMA, and this pine was repotted using that hard akadama last month. You can see the surface soil shows no breakdown yet, but I can easily pulverize a grain between my finger and thumb. Once repotted, you shouldn't need to dig around in it a whole lot anyway.
Reminds me of the joke:
Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
Doctor: "Then stop doing it."
Attachments
clevetromba
Shohin
Josef, I used Haydite (expanded shale) one year, in a mix with crushed granite and pine bark, and two of the three plants I potted with that mix both did very poorly. There was a Crepe Myrtle, a Jade, and a Mugo Pine. The Mugo is the only one that did fine. The Crepe Myrtle stopped flowering and had very pale leaves, and hardly grew at all, and the Jade started losing leaves and has never recovered.
I ran across a blog post by Michael Hagedorn (Crataegus Bonsai) where he claims Turface, Oil Dri, and similar products (of which expanded shale is one) are the worst bonsai soil components to ever use due to their tendency to become hydrophobic, resulting in poor root development. http://crataegus.com/2013/11/24/life-without-turface/
I was convinced this was the problem with my mix until recently I was reading Deborah Koreshoff's book in her chapter on soil where she warns against using pine bark, which many people in this thread seem to be using. Koreshoff claims that pine bark causes nitrogen deficiency, which would explain why my crepe myrtle stopped growing and had pale leaves.
Now I am personally undecided and confused on what to use! Hagedorn swears by pumice and akadama, neither of which are available locally to me. I want my trees to thrive, not just stay alive, but I can't afford to buy expensive soil components. I just don't think I'll be using expanded shale though, as Hagedorn's advice has been born out in my experience.
JoeR
Masterpiece
My order of lava came in today. I mixed it 1 to 1 with the pumice, rinsed it and watered well as a test to see how long it takes to dry out. I want a mix I only have to water once a day and I think that this mix will need watered twice in our summers.
I have perlite, bark fines, pumice, lava, and bonsai micronutrients. What ratio should I use (I don't have to use all ingredients) So that I only have to water onice daily? The micronutrients says on the bottle So don't worry about that.
I have perlite, bark fines, pumice, lava, and bonsai micronutrients. What ratio should I use (I don't have to use all ingredients) So that I only have to water onice daily? The micronutrients says on the bottle So don't worry about that.
Eric Group
Masterpiece
After I water it, if I touch it the Akadama breaks down. I am not "digging around in it" or "playing with it", but sometimes when moving a tree, or wiring a tree, or pruning a tree, or removing needles, dead leaves, weeds... You have to touch it. As my finger just brushes across the surface of the soil, I have noticed particles of Akadama will basically smear like mud. Sometimes when my watering wand is on the "rain setting" it seems to be enough pressure to cause it to break down just from the water alone.. Which isn't a lot of pressure.
The point of my post was simply to ask if perhaps the high fired stuff holds up a little better/ longer, which apparently it does if yours holds it shape until you crush it between your fingers like that.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
A lot of people use turface and grow terrific trees with it (quite a few on this forum, in fact).
A lot of people use haydite-type materials and grow terrific trees with it.
A lot of people use bark in their mixes and grow terrific trees.
Get the watering and fertilizing "right" and you can successfully grow trees in many different substrates.
clevetromba
Shohin
Coh,
I don't doubt you're right about all those things. The trick is finding that "right" combination of growing media and a watering/fertilizing regimen that works for both me and my trees. The vehemency of belief expressed about what is "right" and the number of options out there has me rather confused. Since this is a thread about Akadama/pumice/lava, I think I will start or look for one on Turface/Haydite to find out what others have found that works.
I don't doubt you're right about all those things. The trick is finding that "right" combination of growing media and a watering/fertilizing regimen that works for both me and my trees. The vehemency of belief expressed about what is "right" and the number of options out there has me rather confused. Since this is a thread about Akadama/pumice/lava, I think I will start or look for one on Turface/Haydite to find out what others have found that works.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Scroll back through the threads in the soil subforum, the topic has been discussed many times. If you do a general forum search on "turface" or "haydite" you'll probably find threads in other forums (general, most likely) as well.
Good luck, don't fall into the trap of believing that you have to have lava/pumice/akadama to grow trees well.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Mix? I use pure oil dri if I don't have a little grit to throw in. I tried pine bark once. It turned to goo in a couple months. Doesn't mean other people don't have luck with it. I'm open to trying different substrates to see what works well for me.
Like Chris said, get watering and feeding down and it won't matter which substrate you choose.
Like Chris said, get watering and feeding down and it won't matter which substrate you choose.
JoeR
Masterpiece
You use pure oil dry on all your trees or just some?
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Some pure some maybe get 10% turkey grit when I have it. I water everyday rain or shine. Feed once per week at multiple times the prescribed amount on the box of miracle grow. I haven't had a root issue and get excellent growth. This is me though
Other people use other things and get just as good of results. My theory is keep it as simple and inexpensive as I can. If trees would only grow in one thing I guess I would buy that.
Other people use other things and get just as good of results. My theory is keep it as simple and inexpensive as I can. If trees would only grow in one thing I guess I would buy that.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
He probably has purchased Akadama that was mined shallow. To answer his question akadama is not fired but mined. The deeper the dig the tougher the akadama. I have never used it because any time I ask a dealer if it is mined shallow or deep they will not respond or step around the question.
Grimmy
mat
Chumono
I always thought that the hard akadama was fired. I can't find a good reference, but google has plenty of hits for "fired akadama".
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Check this out there are many more but this says it all except that at collection it is sorted and dried which other articles cover http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akadama
Grimmy
mat
Chumono
So, all the people selling "hard &/or soft fired akadama" are just making that up?
fore
Omono
Grimmy's right. The hardness is determined by where they mine it. Fired means just sterilized. You can only find the soft here in the US, exc. though I know Ryan N. imported his own and it's the hard variety. Very hard to crush. Too bad it's not more easily found.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
If you fire the Akadama to 900 deg.C, it gets even easier to crush.
Been there done that.
By the way all you are looking at is an old farming practice, plow the dark organic into the akadama, then fine till. Later on add composted material to enrich the soil. Dark organic is the first layer to be removed before the Akadama layers are mined.
Clay is the richest soil possible, as can be seen over most of this island, just has to prepared for crops [ eg. sugar cane ]
Good Day
Anthony
Been there done that.
By the way all you are looking at is an old farming practice, plow the dark organic into the akadama, then fine till. Later on add composted material to enrich the soil. Dark organic is the first layer to be removed before the Akadama layers are mined.
Clay is the richest soil possible, as can be seen over most of this island, just has to prepared for crops [ eg. sugar cane ]
Good Day
Anthony
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Hi Mat. Akadama is not fired like a ceramic. It's dried at 300 degrees C (http://www.tachikawa-heiwa.com/Introduction.html). So it's different than the process used to make Haydite or Turface where the material is heated to much higher temperatures. Haydite is flash heated to 2200 degrees C! Here on post 30 I wrote a short note about what akadama is:
http://www.bonsainut.com/index.php?threads/pumice-and-lava-rock-comparison.17420/page-2
My experience with akadama is different than that observed by others on this forum. Perhaps it's the climate in my area, but I can crush Akadama with my fingers, but it lasts for years in the pot. I make soil, keep it several years in the pot, seive and reuse - I have akadama that's been in a pot for 8 or 9 years. Here's a picture of the soil I recycled after this potting season. It's been in a pot for about 4-5 years.
I can still crush the akadama with my fingers, but as you can see it still has maintained its shape after years in the pot. Just above the akadama grains is powder from a grain I crushed.
Anyway - probably the Houston climate as I said, but my experience is different than others here.
Scott
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