Advice on inground big beech chop

[River's Edge]

I refrained from critiquing your approach and decided to excuse myself from the discussion. It often leads to debate and misunderstanding. I am all for thinking outside the box and experimenting with the intent to improve ones knowledge and practices. I do encourage my students to understand the " why" as opposed to simply the "what" and "when". And I have done a lot of collecting. Also experimented with improving the collecting process, as well as the propagation process for difficult species.
Trees thriving in small pots is primarily the result of understanding the interdependence of roots and foliage. This is also true of collecting yamadori. The balance is critical for long term success. Bonsai requires the development of a certain type of root formation for success.
I would suggest reconsidering these aspects.
1. Your choice of a tree with existing significant damage 2. Pruning prior to dormancy 3. Reduction of branching and foliage prior to collection

 

[603bonsai]

I refrained from critiquing your approach and decided to excuse myself from the discussion. It often leads to debate and misunderstanding. I am all for thinking outside the box and experimenting with the intent to improve ones knowledge and practices. I do encourage my students to understand the " why" as opposed to simply the "what" and "when". And I have done a lot of collecting. Also experimented with improving the collecting process, as well as the propagation process for difficult species.
Trees thriving in small pots is primarily the result of understanding the interdependence of roots and foliage. This is also true of collecting yamadori. The balance is critical for long term success. Bonsai requires the development of a certain type of root formation for success.
I would suggest reconsidering these aspects.
1. Your choice of a tree with existing significant damage 2. Pruning prior to dormancy 3. Reduction of branching and foliage prior to collection

Thanks very much for the reply. Please critique me! I don’t know what I’m doing and I am here to learn. I do like to understand why so I can improve my own thinking in the long run. So:
1) I assume because the tree is already weakened and stressed?
2) trees a fully dormant up here now (and at the time of pruning). It’s warmer than typical but solidly below freezing on a regular basis for many weeks now.
3) this one I don’t understand. If I were transplanting a tree, I want to minimize the mass the tree needs to support but insure enough foliage (or stored energy) for it to reestablish roots and get at least an initial flush of new growth. Is that conceptually different when collecting a potting for bonsai?

Thanks again for reengaging and sharing your knowledge.

 

[603bonsai]

Started on the rot today. A few passes with forestry saw and about an hour and 1/2 of knife work. I got a lot of it. Going to let it dry out now and decide what more is needed to be done.
I also pulled back the soil a bit to take a look at the root ball. It’s a beast! Very few feeder roots except off the back right main root, which actually has a good number.




I think between the rot and the root structure, when I’m ready to collect this I’m going have to cut the rootball in two. Potentially cutting here:


I’ve done this before with a two lead beech and had at least partial success. One of the leads transplanted great and has thrived, the other half has shown signs it’s struggling but hasn’t quit on me yet (this is currently the third winter). If I can encourage the side I’m most interested in to throw off more feeder roots then I think I can salvage and collect that side at least. The other side I’ll leave in the ground and just grow a funky tree if it survives.

 

[River's Edge]

this one I don’t understand. If I were transplanting a tree, I want to minimize the mass the tree needs to support but insure enough foliage (or stored energy) for it to reestablish roots and get at least an initial flush of new growth. Is that conceptually different when collecting a potting for bonsai?

The energy to repair and establish new roots comes from photosynthesis in the foliage, energy stored in roots and the tree is designed to open buds and start photosynthesis with new foliage. After transplanting the larger the number of buds the greater the foliage and the taste recovery from photosynthesis. Reduction of buds in the first place with pruning reduces the process! The more new leaves the more photosynthesis and the faster root recovery from transplanting.
If there is insufficient energy stored in the tree to open all the buds so be it! Some will not open, but every one that does will contribute to photosynthesis and a recovery with root production early on in the growing season. It is ok to let the tree decide, early opening buds can support the later buds opening. Also, the more pruning done just prior to dormancy the more damage incurred and the more stored energy that may be used trying to heal the new damage. Thus weakening the tree further prior to spring and bud opening.

Now having said that, if I were emergency transplanting a tree during the growing season when reserves have been used to start the tree in the spring and insufficient time has passed to store further reserves because the tree is pushing new growth. Then at that time it would be appropriate to reduce the load when transplanting. Hope that makes more sense. Others can probably detail this in more scientific terms. Lots of sentences including terms like auxin and cytokines. Horticulturally the tree has periods when new extension growth takes over from root production and vice versa. Therefore the timing affects the procedures we use when transplanting, pruning, wiring, etc.

 

[603bonsai]

The energy to repair and establish new roots comes from photosynthesis in the foliage, energy stored in roots and the tree is designed to open buds and start photosynthesis with new foliage. After transplanting the larger the number of buds the greater the foliage and the taste recovery from photosynthesis. Reduction of buds in the first place with pruning reduces the process! The more new leaves the more photosynthesis and the faster root recovery from transplanting.
If there is insufficient energy stored in the tree to open all the buds so be it! Some will not open, but every one that does will contribute to photosynthesis and a recovery with root production early on in the growing season. It is ok to let the tree decide, early opening buds can support the later buds opening. Also, the more pruning done just prior to dormancy the more damage incurred and the more stored energy that may be used trying to heal the new damage. Thus weakening the tree further prior to spring and bud opening.

Now having said that, if I were emergency transplanting a tree during the growing season when reserves have been used to start the tree in the spring and insufficient time has passed to store further reserves because the tree is pushing new growth. Then at that time it would be appropriate to reduce the load when transplanting. Hope that makes more sense. Others can probably detail this in more scientific terms. Lots of sentences including terms like auxin and cytokines. Horticulturally the tree has periods when new extension growth takes over from root production and vice versa. Therefore the timing affects the procedures we use when transplanting, pruning, wiring, etc.

This is super helpful and informative. Thank you for the detailed response. We typically have a really short spring and the window to transplant when the ground is thawed but the winter buds are still closed is tight. So I’ve often ended up on the wrong side of that window and I was taught to reduce etc and have always done that and found it works. But with your explanation I see why applying one (bad) habit in this context is wrong. Thanks for the education!

 

[BobbyLane]

This video may provide some more insight. The material is very similar too. They collected this Beech in the spring, along with some other deciduous trees, the Beech was the only one that didnt make it. They put this down to it growing from the roots of another tree...
Tbf it didnt have much feeder roots, but many trees would survive collection with the rootball they did get, Hornbeams in particular

These guys are serious, check out some of their other collected trees

 

[603bonsai]

This video may provide some more insight. The material is very similar too. They collected this Beech in the spring, along with some other deciduous trees, the Beech was the only one that didnt make it. They put this down to it growing from the roots of another tree...
Tbf it didnt have much feeder roots, but many trees would survive collection with the rootball they did get, Hornbeams in particular

These guys are serious, check out some of their other collected trees

Thanks for this! Really similar tree!

I’m thinking now that I’m going to thread graft a bunch of roots to it in pots but leave the tree in place for at least a year. Never thread grafted a beech before but don’t see why it would be anymore challenging than any other tree. I’ll give the new roots a year or two to develop after the grafts take and then cut the section of the tree I want and pot the whole thing. I’m going to have to put some thought into how to winterize the whole thing with the potted grafts in place but that seems doable.