A lonely Ume flower......

[Pitoon]

I got mine last year from a little further south of me. Didn’t flower last year and don’t see any flower buds this year. Hoping it’s just acclimating and not a slow death.

Keep us updated. How far south did it come from?

 

[River's Edge]

Not to go against what you wrote, but a double flower is genetically a double flower same as a single flower is genetically a single flower it's in the plants genetic code.There's a lot of variables that can affect how a plant grows due to the enviroment and location. But regardless if the plant is throwing dinky flowers those flowers should still be doubles........unless the plant has mutated and is genetically different from the mother plant.

That also makes sense to me and is what I would expect. The variation has been experienced by other growers as noted in my quote. The fact that it occurs is simply that, I do not pretend to know if it is a "sport" or some other explanation?

 

[Pitoon]

That also makes sense to me and is what I would expect. The variation has been experienced by other growers as noted in my quote. The fact that it occurs is simply that, I do not pretend to know if it is a "sport" or some other explanation?

I wonder if the ph of the media and/or water has a play in that.

 

[Jzack605]

Keep us updated. How far south did it come from?

I actually can’t remember or find the info on where I got it from. I do know it was the same zone, just doesn’t typically get as cold as here on Long Island.

 

[River's Edge]

I wonder if the ph of the media and/or water has a play in that.

If I was to make a guess, it would be either the "stress" factor , which could include one or both variables you mention as possibilities. Still I would expect that if one improves the health and overall conditions the true pattern should prevail. The other possible explanation is the vigour of the particular cultivar, and or specimen.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Thus you may wish to save judgement until you have experience with this particular cultivar in your specific area for a couple of years. There can be climatic variances even though the cultivar is genetically pure! I love the color and look forward to the ongoing revealing pattern as the stock continues to adapt to my location.

This topic really interests me, so i started calling around. Here are some ideas:

There are many other people who are also experiencing reversion specifically with 'Matsubara Red'.

A good comparison would be Azalea 'Kinsai', which is a hybrid that is known to sometimes produce flowers that resemble the flowers of one of its parents (instead of producing the expected flowers of its own hybrid form). The commonly recommended solution in this case is to cut off that branch because people say it will not go back to 'Kinsai' (more on this below). In that set of circumstances the reversion could very well take over the entire specimen, especially if the specimen is small.

@River's Edge you mention that your specimen is "genetically pure". I definitely know what you meant, so please don't get me wrong, but conversation about 'genetic purity' quickly dissolves into questions of semantics and taxonomy, especially in the case of a hybrid like 'Matsubara Red'. I think it's important to mention this here because the issue that many of us seem to be having with 'Matsubara Red' has to do, quite specifically, with epigenetics.

Epigenetics refers to the variables that regulate gene expression, and they are susceptible to being influenced by innumerable environmental factors. You and others have mentioned climate, but every other variable that one could imagine (e.g. water, fertilization, sunlight hours, etc.) are also possible factors of influence on the epigenetics of 'Matsubara Red' that are regulating the gene expression related to flower shape.

The prospect of identifying the variable or combination of variables that are indirectly affecting the shape of the flower is beyond what most of us can do in our gardens, but if we keep testing we might anyways arrive at useful anecdotal observations. I'm looking forward to learning from what you figure out Frank!

The factors influencing the epigenetics that regulate gene expression in 'Matsubara Red' in British Columbia do not have a permanent effect on the specimen. This means that if you brought that specimen back to wherever its 'ideal' conditions can be found (e.g. that person's garden in California) the specimen would, eventually, go back to producing true 'Matsubara Red' flowers. To get back to Azalea 'Kinsai', it is not theoretically true that a branch that has undergone a reversion could not un-revert (I hope this is the theme of the next Christopher Nolan movie ), but instead of figuring out what is causing that reversion the easiest solution is to cut off the branch in question since for 'Kinsai' the reversion occurs sporadically on the odd branch, rather than on the entire specimen as it tends to do for 'Matsubara Red'.

 

[Pitoon]

This topic really interests me, so i started calling around. Here are some ideas:

There are many other people who are also experiencing reversion specifically with 'Matsubara Red'.

A good comparison would be Azalea 'Kinsai', which is a hybrid that is known to sometimes produce flowers that resemble the flowers of one of its parents (instead of producing the expected flowers of its own hybrid form). The commonly recommended solution in this case is to cut off that branch because people say it will not go back to 'Kinsai' (more on this below). In that set of circumstances the reversion could very well take over the entire specimen, especially if the specimen is small.

@River's Edge you mention that your specimen is "genetically pure". I definitely know what you meant, so please don't get me wrong, but conversation about 'genetic purity' quickly dissolves into questions of semantics and taxonomy, especially in the case of a hybrid like 'Matsubara Red'. I think it's important to mention this here because the issue that many of us seem to be having with 'Matsubara Red' has to do, quite specifically, with epigenetics.

Epigenetics refers to the variables that regulate gene expression, and they are susceptible to being influenced by innumerable environmental factors. You and others have mentioned climate, but every other variable that one could imagine (e.g. water, fertilization, sunlight hours, etc.) are also possible factors of influence on the epigenetics of 'Matsubara Red' that are regulating the gene expression related to flower shape.

The prospect of identifying the variable or combination of variables that are indirectly affecting the shape of the flower is beyond what most of us can do in our gardens, but if we keep testing we might anyways arrive at useful anecdotal observations. I'm looking forward to learning from what you figure out Frank!

The factors influencing the epigenetics that regulate gene expression in 'Matsubara Red' in British Columbia do not have a permanent effect on the specimen. This means that if you brought that specimen back to wherever its 'ideal' conditions can be found (e.g. that person's garden in California) the specimen would, eventually, go back to producing true 'Matsubara Red' flowers. To get back to Azalea 'Kinsai', it is not theoretically true that a branch that has undergone a reversion could not un-revert (I hope this is the theme of the next Christopher Nolan movie ), but instead of figuring out what is causing that reversion the easiest solution is to cut off the branch in question since for 'Kinsai' the reversion occurs sporadically on the odd branch, rather than on the entire specimen as it tends to do for 'Matsubara Red'.

Very interesting you brought this up. I am wondering if the following.......humidity, temperature, salty air, water chemistry, media, day light hours, fertilizer type...etc.... has a direct involvement with the bud/flower production of the plant.

I am on the east coast (Maryland - zone 7b), but the plants came from the west coast (Oregon - zone 8b). My Matsu has buds growing and I'm curious to see how the flower will look when they bloom.

 

[River's Edge]

This topic really interests me, so i started calling around. Here are some ideas:

There are many other people who are also experiencing reversion specifically with 'Matsubara Red'.

A good comparison would be Azalea 'Kinsai', which is a hybrid that is known to sometimes produce flowers that resemble the flowers of one of its parents (instead of producing the expected flowers of its own hybrid form). The commonly recommended solution in this case is to cut off that branch because people say it will not go back to 'Kinsai' (more on this below). In that set of circumstances the reversion could very well take over the entire specimen, especially if the specimen is small.

@River's Edge you mention that your specimen is "genetically pure". I definitely know what you meant, so please don't get me wrong, but conversation about 'genetic purity' quickly dissolves into questions of semantics and taxonomy, especially in the case of a hybrid like 'Matsubara Red'. I think it's important to mention this here because the issue that many of us seem to be having with 'Matsubara Red' has to do, quite specifically, with epigenetics.

Epigenetics refers to the variables that regulate gene expression, and they are susceptible to being influenced by innumerable environmental factors. You and others have mentioned climate, but every other variable that one could imagine (e.g. water, fertilization, sunlight hours, etc.) are also possible factors of influence on the epigenetics of 'Matsubara Red' that are regulating the gene expression related to flower shape.

The prospect of identifying the variable or combination of variables that are indirectly affecting the shape of the flower is beyond what most of us can do in our gardens, but if we keep testing we might anyways arrive at useful anecdotal observations. I'm looking forward to learning from what you figure out Frank!

The factors influencing the epigenetics that regulate gene expression in 'Matsubara Red' in British Columbia do not have a permanent effect on the specimen. This means that if you brought that specimen back to wherever its 'ideal' conditions can be found (e.g. that person's garden in California) the specimen would, eventually, go back to producing true 'Matsubara Red' flowers. To get back to Azalea 'Kinsai', it is not theoretically true that a branch that has undergone a reversion could not un-revert (I hope this is the theme of the next Christopher Nolan movie ), but instead of figuring out what is causing that reversion the easiest solution is to cut off the branch in question since for 'Kinsai' the reversion occurs sporadically on the odd branch, rather than on the entire specimen as it tends to do for 'Matsubara Red'.

Glad you knew what I meant! I am actively working with the cultivar and documenting things of note for fellow enthusiasts!

 

[River's Edge]

"Several lifestyle factors have been identified that might modify epigeneticpatterns, such as diet, obesity, physical activity, tobacco smoking, alcohol consumption, environmental pollutants, psychological stress, and working on night shifts."
So far I have ruled out obesity, physical activity, tobacco smoking, environment pollutants and working on night shifts. Still lots of variables, who said Bonsai is easy? Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Holidays everyone from the compliant Ume cultivar! Oops the top flower has three layers in places, the bottom flower only two. Just kidding.

 

[Pitoon]

@River's Edge how many different cultivars are you working with?

 

[River's Edge]

@River's Edge how many different cultivars are you working with?

My main focus is improving propagation methods. In this respect I am working with only two and comparing the results. One is considered quite vigorous " Kobai " the other considered less vigorous and more difficult to propagate " Matsubara ". Availability is limited in this neck of the woods, however any improvement in propagation will aid those with existing stock. Should be cross application of methodology because improvements have been noted in both cultivars. Plus others will have more plants to work with moving forward.

 

[junmilo]

This topic really interests me, so i started calling around. Here are some ideas:

There are many other people who are also experiencing reversion specifically with 'Matsubara Red'.

A good comparison would be Azalea 'Kinsai', which is a hybrid that is known to sometimes produce flowers that resemble the flowers of one of its parents (instead of producing the expected flowers of its own hybrid form). The commonly recommended solution in this case is to cut off that branch because people say it will not go back to 'Kinsai' (more on this below). In that set of circumstances the reversion could very well take over the entire specimen, especially if the specimen is small.

@River's Edge you mention that your specimen is "genetically pure". I definitely know what you meant, so please don't get me wrong, but conversation about 'genetic purity' quickly dissolves into questions of semantics and taxonomy, especially in the case of a hybrid like 'Matsubara Red'. I think it's important to mention this here because the issue that many of us seem to be having with 'Matsubara Red' has to do, quite specifically, with epigenetics.

Epigenetics refers to the variables that regulate gene expression, and they are susceptible to being influenced by innumerable environmental factors. You and others have mentioned climate, but every other variable that one could imagine (e.g. water, fertilization, sunlight hours, etc.) are also possible factors of influence on the epigenetics of 'Matsubara Red' that are regulating the gene expression related to flower shape.

The prospect of identifying the variable or combination of variables that are indirectly affecting the shape of the flower is beyond what most of us can do in our gardens, but if we keep testing we might anyways arrive at useful anecdotal observations. I'm looking forward to learning from what you figure out Frank!

The factors influencing the epigenetics that regulate gene expression in 'Matsubara Red' in British Columbia do not have a permanent effect on the specimen. This means that if you brought that specimen back to wherever its 'ideal' conditions can be found (e.g. that person's garden in California) the specimen would, eventually, go back to producing true 'Matsubara Red' flowers. To get back to Azalea 'Kinsai', it is not theoretically true that a branch that has undergone a reversion could not un-revert (I hope this is the theme of the next Christopher Nolan movie ), but instead of figuring out what is causing that reversion the easiest solution is to cut off the branch in question since for 'Kinsai' the reversion occurs sporadically on the odd branch, rather than on the entire specimen as it tends to do for 'Matsubara Red'.

You know this reminds me of what happened to couple of my umes 3 years ago.

Few of them (pink varieties) begin to bloom flowers at around January and most of the flowers did not show their true form (e.g. only three flower petals, the size of the flower petals were different in size and shape....etc).

I recalled the previous year, I sprayed some fugicide to kill off borer eggs. The following growing season, I stopped using that specific spray and the next winter flowers were back to normal.

 

[TinyArt]

@Bonsai Nut (sorry to be a pest, but just in case--?)

 

[Pitoon]

@Bonsai Nut (sorry to be a pest, but just in case--?)

I thought the post was a bit odd myself.

 

[TinyArt]

I thought the post was a bit odd myself.

This is the 3rd or 4th dormant post that I've seen tapped this way.