A $15 Mugo

[jeanluc83]

This is a tree that I have posted a few times in various threads on mugos but I thought that it had progressed enough to warrant its own thread. I have worked this tree very hard his year. It was pruned heavily twice and repotted in the same year. I may have taken it past the tipping point but the future will tell. The tree will not be touched again until next fall possibly the following spring.

The tree was purchased this spring for about $15 and was immediately cut back by 40-50%. The tree responded with tons of growth. Over 4th of July weekend it was repotted into a colander. I removed approximately 50% of the roots and put in a mix of dry stall (pumice) and about 20% pine bark. In about 3 weeks roots were poking through the sides of the colander.

The following pictures show the tree as it was received, the tree after first cut back, the tree a few weeks after repotting and roots poking through the colander.

 

[jeanluc83]

This past weekend in a workshop with Nick Zenz it was reduced again. It was taken further than I would have been comfortable doing on my own. Nick's argument was in order for the tree to have a future this work needed to be done. It is better to do it now than wait until I have more time invested in the tree. He did not have any doubt that the tree would survive but noted that the tree was only $15 dollars. I found that reassuring.

I applied some wire to set the structure of the tree. The large branch on the right was retained to help fuel the tree. It will be removed in a year if I get good growth next season, two years if the growth is only so-so. The final tree will be about 25% taller at around 12-14".

The first picture is the tree as it stands. I covered the large branch in the second shows to give an idea what the tree will look like.

 

[Paradox]

Wow, that is a lot of work to do in one year. I think Id probably give it two years anyway after all the that. Let us know how it does next year.

 

[ChrisV]

Yes seems a bit radical. I know mugo's dont like repotting especially not if other work is done to it. But you never know. Sometimes they come back suprisingly.
However if you want it to survive, better let it grow free and leave it alone the next years. Just to gather strength for the next stage.

That's just my opinion from my own experience.
i've Killed heaps of them by doing to much work on them to fast.

 

[jeanluc83]

I brought the tree to the workshop to get some advice on the direction to take the tree. Knowing the tree was already cut back and repotted this year I was hoping for some advice and maybe get some wire on the tree. I was surprised when Nick took out the cutters and removed over half the tree. He said yeah you could wait until next year and cut a little bit off. Wait a year and cut a little bit more. Wait another year and cut a little more. But in the end we would end up where we are now. Cut it off and start making something of the tree before years were invested in the tree. The tree cost $15 at this point the time is more valuable.

There will be no additional work done on this tree until there is a significant new growth. Next fall would be the absolute earliest. It is likely to be the following year.

 

[KennedyMarx]

That's a lot of work done in such a short time. Good luck with it. I men that genuinely. I would have left a stub for a jin on that big branch cut.

 

[jeanluc83]

I would have left a stub for a jin on that big branch cut.

I go back and forth on that one.

I try to make an argument of how the damage would have occurred in nature. Pines are naturally week in the crotch of a branch. In my area the damage I am most familiar with is due to snow load. This results in the branch breaking at the crotch and down the trunk. No jin is left.

An alternate scenario would be that the branch died many yeas ago and was eroded over time to leave just a stub.

Both are valid I have chosen the first. (Well, it was partially my decision anyway) My only concern is dieback of the trunk. Vance was clear about leaving a stub. There is still a branch just above that should keep sap moving in this area so I don't think it will be too much of an issue.

 

[crust]

You have a healthy and well potted tree. It was ready for radical and taking it these during this time of great energy is what I'd do too. I believe knowing the balance and timing of aggressive work is often conducted too timidly and we just miss the window of high energy and waste time, Besides Lenz has a feel for these things.

 

[jeanluc83]

Bumping this back to the top. With Vance back I wouldn't mind hearing what his thoughts are on this tree.

 

[Vance Wood]

Bumping this back to the top. With Vance back I wouldn't mind hearing what his thoughts are on this tree.

I was not home, obviously when you started this tree. You did do a lot but I think the tree will survive especially with new roots showing through the colander. I think you should leave the second lower branch that you have covered with a towel for now. Wait till the tree gains strength then see what kind of feedback the tree gives you. It is surprising to me how many times a tree trained with an assumption, after a year or two of growth will indicate something else.

The tree is young and healthy and should survive the initial styling you have given it. You should wait till the tree grows well for an entire season before you do anything else other than bud removal--- if the tree is doing well.

 

[Vance Wood]

I go back and forth on that one.

I try to make an argument of how the damage would have occurred in nature. Pines are naturally week in the crotch of a branch. In my area the damage I am most familiar with is due to snow load. This results in the branch breaking at the crotch and down the trunk. No jin is left.

An alternate scenario would be that the branch died many yeas ago and was eroded over time to leave just a stub.

Both are valid I have chosen the first. (Well, it was partially my decision anyway) My only concern is dieback of the trunk. Vance was clear about leaving a stub. There is still a branch just above that should keep sap moving in this area so I don't think it will be too much of an issue.

Dieback will probably not happen here because the tree has nothing left but the portion of the trunk below the cut to dry and die. However the greater mass of the tree is above the cut and should off set the potential damage probably feeding off the same roots the cut branch utilized.

 

[jeanluc83]

Wait till the tree gains strength then see what kind of feedback the tree gives you. It is surprising to me how many times a tree trained with an assumption, after a year or two of growth will indicate something else.

I think it was in one of Ryan Neil's demonstrations posted on youtube that he talks about the health of trees. He noted that there is this idea out there that as long as a tree is green it is healthy. He says that green is not an indicator of health it just means it is alive. A healthy tree will be showing strong growth of both shoots and roots.

I strive to have healthy trees with strong growth. This tree it showed strong growth making the heavy work possible. To ensure the health of the tree I will again wait until I get strong growth before working the tree again.

 

[jedge76]

As far as the work done, I really like the initial direction you have taken this tree. I will be interested in following the development going forward. Best of luck and keep us posted.

 

[Vance Wood]

I think it was in one of Ryan Neil's demonstrations posted on youtube that he talks about the health of trees. He noted that there is this idea out there that as long as a tree is green it is healthy. He says that green is not an indicator of health it just means it is alive. A healthy tree will be showing strong growth of both shoots and roots.

I strive to have healthy trees with strong growth. This tree it showed strong growth making the heavy work possible. To ensure the health of the tree I will again wait until I get strong growth before working the tree again.

I agree with you BUT; there is a thing called hubris, wherein pride and assumption can trump common sense and informed knowledge and cause a series of events that create disaster. I have had this happen. Having a tree that recovered so well, apparently, from a repotting that I did something I should not have done and lost the tree. In short give the tree at least a complete season to recover and develop strength before you tax its systems another time.

 

[jeanluc83]

The tree has grown a lot, just not where I wanted it. I had significant die back this winter but only on the keeper part. I think it was cut back too hard all at once. On the bright side the rest of the tree is growing fine. There are a couple of buds on the keeper part that are growing. If these develop over the next couple of years they may be of use.

At this point the tree has two options:
1 See how the buds on the keeper part develop and work with those
2 Abandon the original idea and work on the portion that is still healthy

 

[KennedyMarx]

If it were mine , I would cut the dead needles off and concentrate on the healthy section. Maybe the weak part will rejuvenate, or it might just die off completely by next year. Ether way I would heavily fertilize and keep a good eye on it.

 

[qwade]

Speaking from experience, I would have to agree with k-marx & p-dox. Too much Too soon. I had a nice mugo , nursery plant___ typical round ball. Re-potted in summer, (Not because of Vance's recommendation but because I bought it in summer). Later Cadillactaste, Darlene directed me from elsewhere to this site where I thought I was A genius because Vance, ( The Mugo Sensei ) also recommended summer transplant. To make a long story short, I root pruned and top pruned a large mugo and stuck in a pot. Unfortunately it was D O A before the spring. But that doesn't discourage me ( well maybe a little) I am on to the next one!

 

[Vance Wood]

Qwade: Could you describe how you root pruned the tree? I am not looking to embarrass you just looking for reasons for the failure you encountered.

Jeanluc83: It apprears that one portion of you tree dies while the other is flourishing. If you look at the base of the tree it appears that you cut one of the major limbs off from the knuckle at the base of the tree flush. Remember I have been telling you guys to make sure you leave a significant stub or you can get die baxk. I am thinking that may be what happened here.

 

[jeanluc83]

I had a couple of buds that still looked like they might grow so I was waiting to see what happened. I've since removed everything that I knew was dead. This also taught me something: if the branch is dead the needles are difficult to remove. If there is some life still you can pull the needles off fairly easily.

It apprears that one portion of you tree dies while the other is flourishing. If you look at the base of the tree it appears that you cut one of the major limbs off from the knuckle at the base of the tree flush. Remember I have been telling you guys to make sure you leave a significant stub or you can get die baxk. I am thinking that may be what happened here.

I'm sure your correct. A lot was removed from that one area in a short amount of time. It is certainly a good illustration of your point. It is also good to note that the portion that survived had nothing removed below it. Lesson learned.

 

[jeanluc83]

The original “tree” has died back almost completely except for a small tuft of needles. The remainder of the tree has done very well. I'm at a bit of a loss on styling the tree but I have another “problem” that I need to deal with. Too much backbudding.









I guess there are worse problems to have. What is the best method of bud removal, cutting or pinching?