8th U.S. National Bonsai Exhibition, Rochester, NY, USA, September 9-10, 2023

[gfreak]

This tree too

View attachment 508330
I could be a hater but I digress.. the guy sells polished turds on the auctions

So as someone who is newer to bonsai... what's wrong with this tree?

 

[Ruddigger]

So as someone who is newer to bonsai... what's wrong with this tree?

Okay. So, there’s nothing seriously wrong with the tree. In my opinion it’s potted incorrectly, the apex leans WAY to the back, which is an issue, but other than that it’s a nice tree.

I think the sticking point is that it clearly isn't a peak example of American bonsai. It’s a nice tree that needs a few years of work. So why is it accepted in the most “prestigious” show in the country? There were many trees that fell into this category.

 

[yashu]

Did anybody watch the Mirai Live stream last night? Ryan went on a rant about the nationals. I wonder if that will be edited out for the uploaded version.

What was the content of his “rant”? Did it seem like there was more to his lack of attendance than scheduling conflict?

 

[Wood]

So as someone who is newer to bonsai... what's wrong with this tree?

In addition to what @Ruddigger said about the tree itself, there's several errors* in the display, mostly related to repetition of elements:

• Both trees are moving to the left. Direction of the main tree is arguable, but it's on the right side of the display, so it should move to the left, and I think the trunk is more dominantly moving left. First directional branch is going to the left
• The main tree is a little too far to the left in its pot
• Both trees are informal uprights with major shari on the left side of the trunk. I also don't like that they're both tropicals, but I think that's just my bias against tropicals
• Stylistically identical stands for the main and accent trees
• The main tree isn't centered on the stand. If you're purposefully putting it off-center, it's on the wrong side of the stand. This tree could have been moved by a volunteer, so it might not be the artist's fault
• Both pots for the accent tree and main tree are rectangular, glazed, and green
• I'm less sure of this, but the shitakusa seems to be in the wrong place

* "errors" is arguable if you're not going for a classic Japanese formal display, but I don't see much reason to think they're trying to avoid that

 

[Wood]

What was the content of his “rant”? Did it seem like there was more to his lack of attendance than scheduling conflict?

Yeah, @Ruddigger you can't tease us like that and not follow through

 

[rockm]

Did anybody watch the Mirai Live stream last night? Ryan went on a rant about the nationals. I wonder if that will be edited out for the uploaded version.

I can hardly wait

 

[namnhi]

I sincerely admired Bill V for doing this! No question about that but I think the objective of the show is getting a bit murky over the years. I was thinking this is the best of the best show in the USA. Seeing some of the trees from the photos make me think the show is losing its prestige. What make it worst is that there are more qualifiable trees being rejected for trees that are just not making the mark. Should the show have different categories like other shows? I would think that is a bad idea as that will lower the image of 'National' show image.
I hope National show will go on with all the support from various bonsai artists like previous years.... but I have my doubts....

 

[Ruddigger]

They could make more room for trees in the US national show by ditching the Canadian trees. Just sayin.

 

[Ruddigger]

Yeah, @Ruddigger you can't tease us like that and not follow through

In typical Neil fashion it was exceedingly verbose. I wont try to recap it here, at risk of @rockm hunting me down.

He mostly fell along the same lines I did though, plus he added the idea of a professionals only show where things could get really crazy.

 

[rockm]

They could make more room for trees in the US national show by ditching the Canadian trees. Just sayin.

you gonna make the same argument that the Toronto Blue Jays shouldn't be in the American League in baseball? MERCA!!!! DC did it's best acquiring the Montreal Expos...Should we buy up all the Canadian White Cedar bonsai to keep them damn Canucks outta 'mercan bonsai shows? Just askin.

 

[Hartinez]

They could make more room for trees in the US national show by ditching the Canadian trees. Just sayin.

We ditch those Canadian trees and the quality dips IMO. Whats your percentage opinion Rudd? I had someone say that 90% of the trees belonged in the show. Gimme some data to work with here.

 

[Ruddigger]

you gonna make the same argument that the Toronto Blue Jays shouldn't be in the American League in baseball? MERCA!!!! DC did it's best acquiring the Montreal Expos...Should we buy up all the Canadian White Cedar bonsai to keep them damn Canucks outta 'mercan bonsai shows? Just askin.

Your metaphor is lost on me, sports make no sense to me at all.

We ditch those Canadian trees and the quality dips IMO. Whats your percentage opinion Rudd? I had someone say that 90% of the trees belonged in the show. Gimme some data to work with here.

The Canadian entries were nice, I’m not knocking their quality. But “US National” doesn't quite fit. Call it the “North American Exhibition” in that case. If I had a nice tree that was rejected, and then I walked around that show and saw all the Canadian trees and sub/par trees that we wouldnt even allow in my club show, I’d be pretty irritated.

I’d say there were about 30 outstanding trees, and another 30 or 40 that were really really nice.

 

[gfreak]

Okay. So, there’s nothing seriously wrong with the tree. In my opinion it’s potted incorrectly, the apex leans WAY to the back, which is an issue, but other than that it’s a nice tree.

I think the sticking point is that it clearly isn't a peak example of American bonsai. It’s a nice tree that needs a few years of work. So why is it accepted in the most “prestigious” show in the country? There were many trees that fell into this category.

In addition to what @Ruddigger said about the tree itself, there's several errors* in the display, mostly related to repetition of elements:

• Both trees are moving to the left. Direction of the main tree is arguable, but it's on the right side of the display, so it should move to the left, and I think the trunk is more dominantly moving left. First directional branch is going to the left
• The main tree is a little too far to the left in its pot
• Both trees are informal uprights with major shari on the left side of the trunk. I also don't like that they're both tropicals, but I think that's just my bias against tropicals
• Stylistically identical stands for the main and accent trees
• The main tree isn't centered on the stand. If you're purposefully putting it off-center, it's on the wrong side of the stand. This tree could have been moved by a volunteer, so it might not be the artist's fault
• Both pots for the accent tree and main tree are rectangular, glazed, and green
• I'm less sure of this, but the shitakusa seems to be in the wrong place

* "errors" is arguable if you're not going for a classic Japanese formal display, but I don't see much reason to think they're trying to avoid that

That makes sense, I haven't really delved as much into the Art part of displays yet at all lol.
Only one that you mentioned that I actually noticed, was them both leaning to the left, and that it didn't look as "neat" as some others i've seen in terms of foliage.

appreciate the responses though! Lots to learn about all this

 

[rockm]

Your metaphor is lost on me, sports make no sense to me at all.




The Canadian entries were nice, I’m not knocking their quality. But “US National” doesn't quite fit. Call it the “North American Exhibition” in that case. If I had a nice tree that was rejected, and then I walked around that show and saw all the Canadian trees and sub/par trees that we wouldnt even allow in my club show, I’d be pretty irritated.

I’d say there were about 30 outstanding trees, and another 30 or 40 that were really really nice.

you seem irritated anyway and let us know constantly

 

[Shogun610]

So as someone who is newer to bonsai... what's wrong with this tree?

Angle is could be better , pot is in my opinion is too close to the foliage color and could be improved , accent tree is identical to the main trees , positioning of branches is could be better with more refinement. Just my opinion , there was a couple other better Brazilian rain trees in the show that are more interesting/higher examples. I think I read it’s only been w the current owner for a year and a half so again, could use more time.

 

[Vincent Tanner]

plus he added the idea of a professionals only show where things could get really crazy.

Yesterday, I explained to a non-bonsai person the patron model where an owner submits a tree that a professional keeps and works on and maintains. They laughed and thought it was dumb, and asked why they don’t just have pro and amateur categories. Not sure on the logistics of policing that, but I thought it wasn’t a bad idea.

I guess you could argue the lock club shows are the amateur events, but it’s be cool to have a national level one.

 

[Hartinez]

Your metaphor is lost on me, sports make no sense to me at all.




The Canadian entries were nice, I’m not knocking their quality. But “US National” doesn't quite fit. Call it the “North American Exhibition” in that case. If I had a nice tree that was rejected, and then I walked around that show and saw all the Canadian trees and sub/par trees that we wouldnt even allow in my club show, I’d be pretty irritated.

I’d say there were about 30 outstanding trees, and another 30 or 40 that were really really nice.

So the pacific bonsai expo only has trees from the pacific area? Or is it just denoting its location? I know the answer, I’m just saying. Western New York is a skip away from Canada, but the show happens is in the “US”. No sense in not accepting those trees so long as the quality is high. That I think is the rub ultimately. Quality is paramount. Having not been to the PBE I don’t have much perspective so I’m trying to reduce my criticisms till I’ve been to both. But from what I heard, Jonas and Eric did one hell of a job with the submission process, the accepting process and subsequently the judging. To me it felt like the best way to ensure the highest quality. And there were only like 75 trees at the PBE right? From what I saw, they were all pretty great.

 

[Ruddigger]

you seem irritated anyway and let us know constantly

Not at all, I’m throwing out ideas to improve the show and pointing out flaws. You’re replying with eye rolls, which seems like you’re the one that’s irritated.

 

[Shogun610]

In typical Neil fashion it was exceedingly verbose. I wont try to recap it here, at risk of @rockm hunting me down.

He mostly fell along the same lines I did though, plus he added the idea of a professionals only show where things could get really crazy.

When we display the concepts to conceptualized containerized environments we want higher quality to propel the art forward , the disproportionate amount of bonsai as this unattainable art for has its nuances and complexities that really add a confusing dimension of Planck constants for thermodynamics that can in turn show the kinetic and magnetic energy of a tree as it moves and shows it’s expression of intention of season, environments , age , and size .. with the additional plane of existence on the molecular level of cone cells in one’s eye the third eye can really unblock how we view bonsai in a way where the student and professional level are blurred out and there becomes a parabolic shift in reality- Ryan Neil .. jk

 

[Hartinez]

you seem irritated anyway and let us know constantly

Having met Rudd over the weekend, I will definitely say that his position is not one of irritation. Is he critical? Sure why not. He clearly is passionate about Bonsai and spends a lot of time improving his skills and those around him. But I also don’t think for a second that he doesn’t have respect for what Bill has done and created over the decades. Or maybe if I had more perspective in context, I would be a little bit critical myself, But this being the only big show of a high caliber that I’ve been to, I can’t do that. Now if I was comparing this show to my local club show, then the US national exhibition would be heaven on earth.