Balance and Proportion ( in design of pots)

vancehanna

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Seems that many now make pots.
All it takes is a 'bag of clay and a high fire kiln'.

Although I've been making a few pots for the past 40+ yrs....I'm not a professional potter.

I watched Ms. Sara Rayner some 30+ yrs ago at the Midwest Show start with well crafted pots that had somewhat the correct proportion with (typical of the craft at the time or I should say what was the current argot) and features create a future for this small home industry: bonsai pottery. I congratulate her in her business! And yes, there are others making spectacular works which will become the American heirlooms sought after in garage and estate sales....

Yet it seems that design and proportions are sometimes 'out the window' as what is it beyond the craftsmanship and applications of glaze or non glaze that make a design worthy?

Speaking as a design professional, it is simply the proportions of the piece. As one looks at for example the Parthenon by Iktinos and Kallikrates (supposedly contractor and advisor et al. F.S. Kleiner, Gardner's Art Through the Ages 15th Ed) along with Polykleitos ideas of perfect mathematical relationships we see harmony in design. Harmony, repetition, balance among other design elements making the design a balance visually. So much so that later in fact,
the influence was so strong that Sir Royce of Rolls and Royce decided on these proportions for the front grill of their newly design motor car. It stands this way today.
Here's a few proportions that are well balanced. Height x Width x thickness of wall x foot x space et al.
The rim of a pot is also very important in its relationship not just visually but durability wise. I have seen some pots that individuals create that are so subject to a bump that the lip will be immediately broken. Wall thickness is important. Certainly strength is critical yet too much clay makes a pot very clumsy and heavy beyond being necessary for its durability. Again, balance is critical.

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vancehanna

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Awww shucks! I appreciate that note! Thank you! Well in most cases they have a 'long track record' of such (Actually I do as well but my guess is that there's probably less than a couple hundred pots with my chop on 'em...over the past 40 yrs.

I do recall at a bonsai nursery now changed hands down in Flat Rock MI when I used to visit with my long time buddy who passed (Paul Baresi) one day the owner Tim asked if I had a clue as to one of the pots on his shelf. He had no idea of the chop, not finding it anywhere...(he used to scour sales for used bonsai material) and I said, "Yes I know exactly who's it is: mine!"
 

Paradox

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Beautiftul pots for sure.
While I understand there is an ideal set of parameters for a particular sized pot, I live in the unperfect world of the tree's roots.

You can have the most perfectly proportioned pot for the pot and for the size of the tree's trunk, but if the tree's roots won't fit well enough to ensure the continued health of the tree, those perfect proportions don't do you much good for that tree.

That is why I asked Colorado to make me a pot that is deeper than normal for its size because the tree won't fit into an ideal pot.
 

vancehanna

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In time all will fit with just a little root pruning…

Never too hastey !
 

bwaynef

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I think many American potters are more interested in free expression than craft and artistry, even if they say that their free-expression is art. I made a post in a similar vein that wasn't well-received. I believe that its a lack of craft that allows them to pull off the design quite honestly.

I'd love to incorporate more American potters into my collection.
 

Gabler

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I think many American potters are more interested in free expression than craft and artistry, even if they say that their free-expression is art. I made a post in a similar vein that wasn't well-received. I believe that its a lack of craft that allows them to pull off the design quite honestly.

I'd love to incorporate more American potters into my collection.

When my dad was in art school, his advisor warned him to stay away from the ceramics studio: "They're not real artists." When I asked him what that meant, he said something to the effect that it was more about experimentation than technique. I have no idea if that's true, but it seems to echo the sentiment you expressed.
 

bwaynef

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When my dad was in art school, his advisor warned him to stay away from the ceramics studio: "They're not real artists." When I asked him what that meant, he said something to the effect that it was more about experimentation than technique. I have no idea if that's true, but it seems to echo the sentiment you expressed.
I'm not saying that ceramicists can't be artists. I just haven't seen as much dedication to the craft as I'd like to see ...at least in the finished product.
 

Gabler

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I'm not saying that ceramicists can't be artists. I just haven't seen as much dedication to the craft as I'd like to see ...at least in the finished product.

I don't think that's what the advisor was saying either. I think it's just that the ceramicists at the school didn't approach their craft with the same technical rigor as the other branches of the art department, which is sorta similar to your observation about North American bonsai pottery.
 

vancehanna

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Highly recognized American ceramic artist, Peter Volkus broke the mold in the late 60’s in Oakland CA.
He was a trend setter and pulled ceramics out of the craft world and into the world of sculpture.


Very few have done this.


Since then the American scene is just as scattered as ever with remnants of what the current argot of campus mush will take and it does show.

Bonsai as an Art can and should examine new ideas in containers yes!

However many pot makers are simply not schooled or students of design.

I’d like very much to see new architectural ideas in the realm yet most are not worthy.

And mine are not ground breaking: simply well made traditional forms not worthy of a lofty design challenge.

I do strive to make excellent examples of well proportioned form with the hope that one day a spark of super creativity will ignite a new pot… hah!
 

rockm

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This is an interesting thread, as I too, see what Vance is talking about with Western bonsai pots. Balancing art and function for bonsai pots is a very very hard thing to do as Vance says.

this podcast with Ron Lang and Ryan Neal discusses design, bonsai and bonsai pots. A little long-winded, but there is some interesting stuff. Ron was the chairman of the ceramics dept. at the Maryland Institute College of Art for about 30 years before getting into, then retiring from making bonsai pots for (guessing) 20 years.

The Pacific Bonsai Museum also has a set of articles about their design collaboration project--Living Art of Bonsai (LAB) project.
 

Colorado

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Seems that many now make pots.
All it takes is a 'bag of clay and a high fire kiln'.

Although I've been making a few pots for the past 40+ yrs....I'm not a professional potter.

I watched Ms. Sara Rayner some 30+ yrs ago at the Midwest Show start with well crafted pots that had somewhat the correct proportion with (typical of the craft at the time or I should say what was the current argot) and features create a future for this small home industry: bonsai pottery. I congratulate her in her business! And yes, there are others making spectacular works which will become the American heirlooms sought after in garage and estate sales....

Yet it seems that design and proportions are sometimes 'out the window' as what is it beyond the craftsmanship and applications of glaze or non glaze that make a design worthy?

Speaking as a design professional, it is simply the proportions of the piece. As one looks at for example the Parthenon by Iktinos and Kallikrates (supposedly contractor and advisor et al. F.S. Kleiner, Gardner's Art Through the Ages 15th Ed) along with Polykleitos ideas of perfect mathematical relationships we see harmony in design. Harmony, repetition, balance among other design elements making the design a balance visually. So much so that later in fact,
the influence was so strong that Sir Royce of Rolls and Royce decided on these proportions for the front grill of their newly design motor car. It stands this way today.
Here's a few proportions that are well balanced. Height x Width x thickness of wall x foot x space et al.
The rim of a pot is also very important in its relationship not just visually but durability wise. I have seen some pots that individuals create that are so subject to a bump that the lip will be immediately broken. Wall thickness is important. Certainly strength is critical yet too much clay makes a pot very clumsy and heavy beyond being necessary for its durability. Again, balance is critical.

View attachment 539990View attachment 539991View attachment 539992View attachment 539993View attachment 539994View attachment 539995

Great post, Vance. I am a new potter myself (2 years in). I have noticed that it seems some western potters prioritize flashy glazes above all else, including form. I have particularly noticed that the feet on some pots are wildly out of proportion.

These are good points to remember as we potters try to continue to improve our work 🙂
 

Paradox

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In time all will fit with just a little root pruning…

Never too hastey !

if you are dealing with a tree that was originally grown for bonsai, Id tend to agree as it has been grown with having its roots pruned periodically

With a nursery trade tree or a yamadori, no it wont always fit in to that idea pot over time. I have a few trees now that I am not sure Ill ever be able to cut the root mass back enough to fit them into the "ideal pot"
 

Srt8madness

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if you are dealing with a tree that was originally grown for bonsai, Id tend to agree as it has been grown with having its roots pruned periodically

With a nursery trade tree or a yamadori, no it wont always fit in to that idea pot over time. I have a few trees now that I am not sure Ill ever be able to cut the root mass back enough to fit them into the "ideal pot"
Kill it or make it a bonsai.

I did that with two of my biggest trunks this weekend. One I forgot how messy the roots were under the soil, untili pulled it. It would take years to MAYBE fix it, so I hacked away. If they live, awesome. If not, they would have never been ready.

Of course I also ascribe to using pots deeper than currently "popular "
 
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Seems that many now make pots.
All it takes is a 'bag of clay and a high fire kiln'.

Although I've been making a few pots for the past 40+ yrs....I'm not a professional potter.

I watched Ms. Sara Rayner some 30+ yrs ago at the Midwest Show start with well crafted pots that had somewhat the correct proportion with (typical of the craft at the time or I should say what was the current argot) and features create a future for this small home industry: bonsai pottery. I congratulate her in her business! And yes, there are others making spectacular works which will become the American heirlooms sought after in garage and estate sales....

Yet it seems that design and proportions are sometimes 'out the window' as what is it beyond the craftsmanship and applications of glaze or non glaze that make a design worthy?

Speaking as a design professional, it is simply the proportions of the piece. As one looks at for example the Parthenon by Iktinos and Kallikrates (supposedly contractor and advisor et al. F.S. Kleiner, Gardner's Art Through the Ages 15th Ed) along with Polykleitos ideas of perfect mathematical relationships we see harmony in design. Harmony, repetition, balance among other design elements making the design a balance visually. So much so that later in fact,
the influence was so strong that Sir Royce of Rolls and Royce decided on these proportions for the front grill of their newly design motor car. It stands this way today.
Here's a few proportions that are well balanced. Height x Width x thickness of wall x foot x space et al.
The rim of a pot is also very important in its relationship not just visually but durability wise. I have seen some pots that individuals create that are so subject to a bump that the lip will be immediately broken. Wall thickness is important. Certainly strength is critical yet too much clay makes a pot very clumsy and heavy beyond being necessary for its durability. Again, balance is critical.

View attachment 539990View attachment 539991View attachment 539992View attachment 539993View attachment 539994View attachment 539995
At some point, I would love to order pots from you. They are all stunning and look high quality. My trees would be honored to live in your pots.
 

vancehanna

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The images above are :
1.) VH
2.) VH
3,) 3-5 Balance unknown US potters
4.) Balance: Asian origin
 

Pitoon

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A ceramicist can be as artistic in free expression as their heart desires, but if the pot is not aesthetically pleasing to the eye, in terms of design and being in proportion to that design. The pot will never look right, and to add a multiplier the glaze should match the pot just as the pot should match the glaze.

It's a real challenge to get design, porportion, and finish to all line up. Many potters in my opinion fail to hit all three marks, most don't hit any marks at all. Just as @vancehanna mentioned in his first post, all it takes is a bag of clay and a kiln to make a pot. But the difference in making a pot that would sell for $25 verse $250 or more is hitting those marks (caveat; a known potter will have an influence on the price)

In the end a pot is nothing more than clay that has been vitrified, and a tree doesn't care what's it growing in as long as it can grow. Pots have a value to us, and anything that is handmade by a person will eventually come to an end when that person passes. It's the scarcity of an item that attracts us to collect since we know that when something is gone, it's gone forever.
 
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