Will this Elm Air Layer up high?

[SmallTreeGuy]

I have been eyeing a specific branch on one of my large Elm trees for a couple of years and luckily it is above my studio so I can reach it with a ladder. When spring comes around, I’m planning on air layering it to get a pretty substantial trunk with some interesting movement. Attached is the picture of the limb. The red mark is where I plan on doing the air layer and the two green marks are two possibilities of where the top would be cut to. This limb is supplying nutrients for quite a bit of foliage. The largest part of the trunk where I’m going to grow roots is around 2.5”-3” diameter. How wide should I make the whole cut? Also, does anyone see any problem with this not working since it’s so high up in the tree? I know Elms are pretty vigorous and easy to air layer but I’ve never done one from a large tree, way up high…

Here’s the pic with the branch I plan to air layer in the middle.
Thanks all for any input and knowledge.

 

[BrianBay9]

Being high in the tree shouldn't be a problem for the air layer itself. It might be a problem for you. Keeping it moist will require a lot ladder climbing. On a horizontal branch you're likely to get roots predominantly on the down side. Harvesting that layer will require some dangerous saw work up that high with a limb that heavy. I've never done a layer higher than I can reach from the ground.

 

[tangledtanuki]

Also take into account that you may need a longer time to get enough roots. I know elms can be bare rooted but having removed an air-layer to soon on a big branch it is better for there to be plenty of roots. I would also say that the section you have shown has some really straight pieces so I would rather aim for something with more movement and character. Good luck

 

[rockm]

I would literally set my sights a lot lower. The location is too high FOR YOU to be able to monitor the layer. Getting up there and preparing the branch for air layering--removing bark, scraping cambium, etc. is only the first part of the process. Once all that is done by you hanging by your knees up in the tree and returning to the ground voluntarily, the layer will have to be monitored over a period of months to insure it remains moist and sound (wind is stronger up there if there aren't windbreaks like roofs, fences,etc. That will dry the layering package out sooner.

The tree will likely root up there all things being equal. It's the logistics of climbing up there and taking care of it that are the issue.

 

[Shibui]

The tree will likely root up there all things being equal. It's the logistics of climbing up there and taking care of it that are the issue.

And whether the layer is worth all that.
In my experience many branches look good but few actually deliver on the promise. I've layered many branches thinking they are show stoppers but after separation wondered why I bothered. Yours may be different but from the photo I don't see great taper and the bends seem a long way apart.
Height won't stop layering but does add a danger element. I'm not sure the extra risk is worth it but you need to assess risk V reward.

 

[The Barber]

Hope you have a bucket truck.

 

[SmallTreeGuy]

I would literally set my sights a lot lower. The location is too high FOR YOU to be able to monitor the layer. Getting up there and preparing the branch for air layering--removing bark, scraping cambium, etc. is only the first part of the process. Once all that is done by you hanging by your knees up in the tree and returning to the ground voluntarily, the layer will have to be monitored over a period of months to insure it remains moist and sound (wind is stronger up there if there aren't windbreaks like roofs, fences,etc. That will dry the layering package out sooner.

The tree will likely root up there all things being equal. It's the logistics of climbing up there and taking care of it that are the issue.

It’s a few steps up a step ladder to reach it from the roof so it’s a lot lower than it looks in the picture. It’s around 6 1/2 feet right above the roof of my wood shop so it should be really easy. I can step up on the roof there pretty easy from my deck which is close to the roof level of the shop. Logistics should be no issue. Certainly easier than some I’ve done,

And whether the layer is worth all that.
In my experience many branches look good but few actually deliver on the promise. I've layered many branches thinking they are show stoppers but after separation wondered why I bothered. Yours may be different but from the photo I don't see great taper and the bends seem a long way apart.
Height won't stop layering but does add a danger element. I'm not sure the extra risk is worth it but you need to assess risk V reward.

Pretty easy to get up there. I can just step onto the roof of the studio from my deck and only need a step ladder to get up there high enough to do work. I believe the reward is high because I can see it up close. (Already been up there and inspected it/touched it) The taper is ok/good it’s not too visible at this angle. I get up there all the time as well to chill on the roof since it’s a step up from my deck and the curves are really cool when you see it up close. They go all different ways. Forward, backward and side to side. The angle I took the picture is not too good, I guess. I think it’s worth it….and danger isn’t very high considering I’d be doing it at a height I’m comfortable with and on a flat roof. Keeping the moisture maintained should be easy since it’s where most of all my potted plant and bonsais are located…when I’m not working in my shop, I’m usually back there doing something anyways lol doesn’t seem like much more work than some of the other air layers I’ve done. It just happens to be up higher in a tree, luckily accessible pretty easily. I have 15 other large elms that I’ve never considered this on, but this one is literally 6 1/2 feet above a flat roof. I was more concerned about the layer taking since it’s higher in the tree than any I’ve done in the past. Glad to know it won’t be necessarily an issue if all is done right. I know I can be a little risky, but I certainly wouldn’t get up there if it was dangerous.

 

[SmallTreeGuy]

Also take into account that you may need a longer time to get enough roots. I know elms can be bare rooted but having removed an air-layer to soon on a big branch it is better for there to be plenty of roots. I would also say that the section you have shown has some really straight pieces so I would rather aim for something with more movement and character. Good luck

It’s going to be about a 2 1/2 foot tree so it’ll be on the large side (kinda what I’m looking for for this tree.) The curves are more interesting when you see it up close and change the angle of the camera I’m super picky so I’ll be happy with it if I can layer it successfully

 

[rockm]

It’s a few steps up a step ladder to reach it from the roof so it’s a lot lower than it looks in the picture. It’s around 6 1/2 feet right above the roof of my wood shop so it should be really easy. I can step up on the roof there pretty easy from my deck which is close to the roof level of the shop. Logistics should be no issue. Certainly easier than some I’ve done,

Pretty easy to get up there. I can just step onto the roof of the studio from my deck and only need a step ladder to get up there high enough to do work. I believe the reward is high because I can see it up close. (Already been up there and inspected it/touched it) The taper is ok/good it’s not too visible at this angle. I get up there all the time as well to chill on the roof since it’s a step up from my deck and the curves are really cool when you see it up close. They go all different ways. Forward, backward and side to side. The angle I took the picture is not too good, I guess. I think it’s worth it….and danger isn’t very high considering I’d be doing it at a height I’m comfortable with and on a flat roof. Keeping the moisture maintained should be easy since it’s where most of all my potted plant and bonsais are located…when I’m not working in my shop, I’m usually back there doing something anyways lol doesn’t seem like much more work than some of the other air layers I’ve done. It just happens to be up higher in a tree, luckily accessible pretty easily. I have 15 other large elms that I’ve never considered this on, but this one is literally 6 1/2 feet above a flat roof. I was more concerned about the layer taking since it’s higher in the tree than any I’ve done in the past. Glad to know it won’t be necessarily an issue if all is done right. I know I can be a little risky, but I certainly wouldn’t get up there if it was dangerous.

If you're shinnying up the fence on the deck onto the roof, you're young and silly/stupid. I have a professional roofer neighbor who busted his pelvis doing something like this. Bones can be broken from falls as short as three feet. He shattered his hip in a fall of only eight feet, from a flat roof. That happened because he got too comfortable doing shit similar to what you're doing. Familiarity breeds contempt. He has a pretty weird walk now 20 years down the line. The older you get, the more the funnier risk reward equations become, particularly if you have kids.

FWIW, This branch isn't all that great. you've fixated on it because it has a bend and you apparently want a good story to tell your neighbors and the ER staff. Also FWIW, an air layer that big will have to eventually grow roots and nebari to match the diameter/visual mass of the trunk. that will take a decade with this piece of material (up close or no). I wouldn't bother. There are better trees on the ground that have a lot more potential. Other than that single bend, the rest of that branch is straight as a Texas farm road. You'd have to spend a decade or two just growing out a new apex, another growing out a decent nebari.

That availability is why you start yamadori from the bases of existing trees. They already have measurable nebari that can yield a lot better results in substantially less time.

Which begs the last question-have you ever air layered something this size, or even air layered an in-ground tree before? if not, you risk killing the branch you so admire. Everyone thinks air layering is easy. Its's really not. failures are common.

Bottom line, I don't think it's worth risking your health/physical well being for something that's pretty mediocre using a technique you may not have any idea how to do, and will have difficulty performing and maintaining. Additionally, how you plan to remove that air layer after its taken? Saw it off? A branch that big will require a substantial saw, preferably a power saw--which comes with more violent torque/vibration than a hand saw. A hand saw will take longer and also bring pretty good vibration thought the limb. . Also you will have to be able to lower what will likely be a pretty heavy, long unwieldy limb without disturbing the roots. Both things will impact brittle new roots, potentially killing the air layer...The "reality vs fantasy" equation mostly trumps the "risk/reward equation."

 

[SmallTreeGuy]

Who says I don’t want a decade long journey with this tree? Who says it’s dangerous when I’ve literally air layered at least 20 trees on ladders before…the point of my post wasn’t was this worth it to you. It’s worth it to me. I can see the taper and it’s all the way there. You can’t because of the picture. I take risks in my art: Not stupid risks (this isn’t one) if you saw how close to the roof it was you would laugh. And yes the picture isn’t that great but it’s a lot nicer than you can see. I see straight sticks of yamadori all the time.

I’m a pretty smart/ingenuous person and I think I’d know if I was risking anything major that I’d not already done before. The point of my post was to ask if the air layer would work being so high up in the tree, not if I can get up there. Considering it’s 3 steps up a step ladder to get to and a fall on a flat roof, (if by any stretch of the imagination I’d fall.) that’s just silly. I also dont take too well to being called stupid or even insinuated that I am if I try something. Tired of mediocrity and I overcome that by doing what others don’t or “won’t”. You’re being mean spirited and I don’t like it. Not at all. Makes me sad, honestly.

 

[SmallTreeGuy]

If you're shinnying up the fence on the deck onto the roof, you're young and silly/stupid. I have a professional roofer neighbor who busted his pelvis doing something like this. Bones can be broken from falls as short as three feet. He shattered his hip in a fall of only eight feet, from a flat roof. That happened because he got too comfortable doing shit similar to what you're doing. Familiarity breeds contempt. He has a pretty weird walk now 20 years down the line. The older you get, the more the funnier risk reward equations become, particularly if you have kids.

FWIW, This branch isn't all that great. you've fixated on it because it has a bend and you apparently want a good story to tell your neighbors and the ER staff. Also FWIW, an air layer that big will have to eventually grow roots and nebari to match the diameter/visual mass of the trunk. that will take a decade with this piece of material (up close or no). I wouldn't bother. There are better trees on the ground that have a lot more potential. Other than that single bend, the rest of that branch is straight as a Texas farm road. You'd have to spend a decade or two just growing out a new apex, another growing out a decent nebari.

That availability is why you start yamadori from the bases of existing trees. They already have measurable nebari that can yield a lot better results in substantially less time.

Which begs the last question-have you ever air layered something this size, or even air layered an in-ground tree before? if not, you risk killing the branch you so admire. Everyone thinks air layering is easy. Its's really not. failures are common.

Bottom line, I don't think it's worth risking your health/physical well being for something that's pretty mediocre using a technique you may not have any idea how to do, and will have difficulty performing and maintaining. Additionally, how you plan to remove that air layer after its taken? Saw it off? A branch that big will require a substantial saw, preferably a power saw--which comes with more violent torque/vibration than a hand saw. A hand saw will take longer and also bring pretty good vibration thought the limb. . Also you will have to be able to lower what will likely be a pretty heavy, long unwieldy limb without disturbing the roots. Both things will impact brittle new roots, potentially killing the air layer...The "reality vs fantasy" equation mostly trumps the "risk/reward equation."

Also I can step onto the roof in one step from the deck…not shimmying up there. Did you not read my original post?

 

[SmallTreeGuy]

I’ve also not fixated on it in a fantasy type of way either. Out of all the elms I have none look good other than this one and I can actually get to it easily. The pessimism and overprotective attitudes are a little hilarious to me. I’ve objectively got up there and checked for inverse taper, taper and I’ve even photoshopped possible planting angles at different cut positions on the branch from different/better angles.

 

[SmallTreeGuy]

And I like you rockm. You have always been helpful. I just feel like you think I’m incapable or stupid and clumsy which I am not. Yes accidents can happen but I’ve been up higher on a ladder inside my own house than this will be.

 

[rockm]

Also I can step onto the roof in one step from the deck…not shimmying up there. Did you not read my original post?

I read your original post. The entire thing sounds kind of silly to me. Not much return for a lot of unnecessary effort for a piece of material that is outclassed by stuff that's likely all around you on the ground.

I'm very familiar with Dallas and East Texas. I've collected cedar elm and bald cypress in the area. I've collected Cedar Elm with Zach Smith on my family's property in Tyler. I know what's around there. Cedar elm, southern hackberry grow, sand plum, live oak, willow oak and a lot of other bonsai suitable species grow like weeds. I collected a cedar elm clump out of my brother's gutter in Dallas one spring. My brother was cleaning his gutters and threw it at me. I sold it a while back. I've found ground grown five inch diameter bald cypress in the sale bin at a Garland nursery for $5. I'm not a genius when it comes to finding stuff like that. All you have to do is look.

If you have any yard, know of ditches/fields near you, have neighbors with any kind of yard, or know of a decent nursery or two, you have access to material that is far FAR superior to this without the stupid machinations required to get it, much less the investment of two decades making it decent--ish.

 

[rockm]

I’ve also not fixated on it in a fantasy type of way either. Out of all the elms I have none look good other than this one and I can actually get to it easily. The pessimism and overprotective attitudes are a little hilarious to me. I’ve objectively got up there and checked for inverse taper, taper and I’ve even photoshopped possible planting angles at different cut positions on the branch from different/better angles.

No dude, you're mistaking pessimism for actual experience with collecting stuff in your area. You're missing the forest for the trees (or tree in this case). That's not a real great candidate, even if you don't kill it.

Didn't answer my question, ever air layered anything succesfully?

 

[SmallTreeGuy]

No dude, you're mistaking pessimism for actual experience with collecting stuff in your area. You're missing the forest for the trees (or tree in this case). That's not a real great candidate, even if you don't kill it.

Didn't answer my question, ever air layered anything succesfully?

Did you read my reply? I said I had air layered around 20 trees about 15 are still alive. Just because I have recently got onto bonsainut doesn’t mean I haven’t dove head first into it and gotten quite a bit of experience over the last 4 years doing bonsai. It’s literally all I do other than my woodworking and art that I do for a (very good) living. I am 34 and have had a lot of experience cutting trees, limbs on my parents farm in NE Texas. There is also no material around me on the ground that is this good (believe me if there was, I already air layered it or collected it. All successful thus far, even the oak I collected out of season.) Call me wrong or inexperienced all you want but hey “That’s just your opinion, man”. I’ll stick with the vision I have in my head where I can already see the finish line most of the time. Nothing I’ve done in life with my art that has been successful was done without substantial risks. Hell, I have a gallery showing in Tokyo in two months for my sculptures and furniture…This isn’t a substantial risk to me and if it’s worth it to me, without much hassle (it may be difficult to get up there for you, who knows!!) then that’s all that matters. I KNOW what I’m capable of. I haven’t lived 34 years through a drug addiction, abusive relationships and still managed to get noticed by galleries finally internationally at the age of 34 by not having somewhat realistic goals and standards and the strength to say hey “I’m going to continue living and move past this dark stuff instead of ending it like I tried to do on multiple occasions”. You do not know the strength others have had to face that may make something hard, or even easier for them for that matter. Silly is just a matter of your opinion.

 

[rockm]

Did you read my reply? I said I had air layered around 20 trees about 15 are still alive. Just because I have recently got onto bonsainut doesn’t mean I haven’t dove head first into it and gotten quite a bit of experience over the last 4 years doing bonsai. It’s literally all I do other than my woodworking and art that I do for a (very good) living. I am 34 and have had a lot of experience cutting trees, limbs on my parents farm in NE Texas. There is also no material around me on the ground that is this good (believe me if there was, I already air layered it or collected it. All successful thus far, even the oak I collected out of season.) Call me wrong or inexperienced all you want but hey “That’s just your opinion, man”. I’ll stick with the vision I have in my head where I can already see the finish line most of the time. Nothing I’ve done in life with my art that has been successful was done without substantial risks. Hell, I have a gallery showing in Tokyo in two months for my sculptures and furniture…This isn’t a substantial risk to me and if it’s worth it to me, without much hassle (it may be difficult to get up there for you, who knows!!) then that’s all that matters. I KNOW what I’m capable of. I haven’t lived 34 years through a drug addiction, abusive relationships and still managed to get noticed by galleries finally internationally at the age of 34 by not having somewhat realistic goals and standards and the strength to say hey “I’m going to continue living and move past this dark stuff instead of ending it like I tried to do on multiple occasions”. You do not know the strength others have had to face that may make something hard, or even easier for them for that matter. Silly is just a matter of your opinion.

Well, dude, you've made this about a lot of something else. Simply saying what you're doing isn't really worth the effort for the return.

Doing bonsai for four years is well, four years. Your reach mostly exceeds your grasp in that period. Been there done that, learned to work smarter. You asked for advice about what to do, but actually seem to be seeking affirmation.

And as for hardships, no I don't know yours, but likewise...Everyone has their story and I've been living twice your lifetime.

 

[SmallTreeGuy]

Well, the condensation is real. This post was a question about whether it would take as an air layer being high up in the tree, not whether you like it or not or think it’s worth your time. Honestly, I don’t care. I didn’t ask for for affirmation. I never did. I didn’t even ask for your opinion. I don’t need anyone telling me what’s worth my time or not. Especially when I CAN see the possibilities on this piece of material. I have a pretty good eye for aesthetics, and sometimes I can be quite out there with it, but it still stays within good taste. All I’m saying is, I see a vision for the tree in the future and that it’s nicer than UMYOU can possibly see in the picture. You may not believe me and the world may not. I don’t care. But, if I don’t think it’s a waste of time because I can see the possibilities this piece has to offer ME. All I was doing was asking a question (which was answered) and got a lot of other feedback that I didn’t ask for. I see so many other pieces of subpar material on this site, and when I find something way more exciting than a stick in a pot and want to challenge myself you chime in and say it’s a waste of time. It’s a waste of time to air layer a beautiful Elm branch that has a beautiful elegant sweeping curves in the trunk that I can possibly do something very interesting with as a project for myself as a challenge? Look I’m trying to be nice here, but I think I know if what I’m doing would possibly end up as a waste of time it not. Four measly years of experience, or not. I DO know what I wanna do with the air layer and already have a plan for it. I didn’t ask anyone EVER for their opinion. You also kept asking me questions about things I had already addressed, which begs the question, did you read anything of what I said fully? Look honestly I don’t even care anymore. This thread was me posting a question about whether it would take or not, not whether you or anyone else thinks the layer is worth it

That’s it plain and simple. I’ll update you on the tree when you’re in your 90s deal? Then you can tell me if it was a waste of time then? Lol

 

[rockm]

Well, the condensation is real. This post was a question about whether it would take as an air layer being high up in the tree, not whether you like it or not or think it’s worth your time. Honestly, I don’t care. I didn’t ask for for affirmation. I never did. I didn’t even ask for your opinion. I don’t need anyone telling me what’s worth my time or not. Especially when I CAN see the possibilities on this piece of material. I have a pretty good eye for aesthetics, and sometimes I can be quite out there with it, but it still stays within good taste. All I’m saying is, I see a vision for the tree in the future and that it’s nicer than UMYOU can possibly see in the picture. You may not believe me and the world may not. I don’t care. But, if I don’t think it’s a waste of time because I can see the possibilities this piece has to offer ME. All I was doing was asking a question (which was answered) and got a lot of other feedback that I didn’t ask for. I see so many other pieces of subpar material on this site, and when I find something way more exciting than a stick in a pot and want to challenge myself you chime in and say it’s a waste of time. It’s a waste of time to air layer a beautiful Elm branch that has a beautiful elegant sweeping curves in the trunk that I can possibly do something very interesting with as a project for myself as a challenge? Look I’m trying to be nice here, but I think I know if what I’m doing would possibly end up as a waste of time it not. Four measly years of experience, or not. I DO know what I wanna do with the air layer and already have a plan for it. I didn’t ask anyone EVER for their opinion. You also kept asking me questions about things I had already addressed, which begs the question, did you read anything of what I said fully? Look honestly I don’t even care anymore. This thread was me posting a question about whether it would take or not, not whether you or anyone else thinks the layer is worth it

That’s it plain and simple. I’ll update you on the tree when you’re in your 90s deal? Then you can tell me if it was a waste of time then? Lol

Don't wait that long to update us lol. Post a pic next year when you've got it in a container. Until then your vision is just that. Looks like a cedar elm to me. They root pretty well, but they can have a tendency to root one sided after collection, particularly with larger examples.

 

[SmallTreeGuy]

Don't wait that long to update us lol. Post a pic next year when you've got it in a container. Until then your vision is just that. Looks like a cedar elm to me. They root pretty well, but they can have a tendency to root one sided after collection, particularly with larger examples.

Lol I’ll try and prove you wrong that it’s not worth it! That kind of stuff usually propels me to work harder AND even smarter. You’ll see! Lol