Why japanese black pine?

[Txhorticulture]

As for jbp ...

It is supposed to do ok here but in my experience it doesn't. I killed a 'ban sho ho' in my landscape because I didn't water enough during a drought. It was a beautiful dwarf though...

Also killed an 'Ogon Janome' in a container. It was really pretty variegated golden foliage pine. The gold leaves burned off pretty fast. The green needles not much later....

 

[Adair M]

Well, not watering a tree during a draught is a surefire way to kill one.

As to the golden tree, I'm not familiar with that variety. Usually variegated varieties need more shade than non-variegated ones.

A part of "learning bonsai" is learning what varieties suit your particular micro climate.

The best way to find out what does well in your area is to join a local bonsai club or society, and find out what trees do well for most of the members. Start with something easy, there's much to learn! Then once you get the easy ones going well, you can progress on to more difficult (or trees with more demanding conditions).

Your statement about the tree dying in the draught is equivalent to someone complaining that their car runs out of gas because they refuse to stop at the gas station. Not the car's fault.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Not the trees fault

Just saying in my experience that thunbergii is tough to grow here.

I've seen larger ones in landscapes, they tend to get chlorotic and seem to suffer in the heat a little bit.

 

[Dav4]

It is supposed to do ok here but in my experience it doesn't. I killed a 'ban sho ho' in my landscape because I didn't water enough during a drought. It was a beautiful dwarf though...

Also killed an 'Ogon Janome' in a container. It was really pretty variegated golden foliage pine. The gold leaves burned off pretty fast. The green needles not much later....

Well, not watering a tree during a draught is a surefire way to kill one.

As to the golden tree, I'm not familiar with that variety. Usually variegated varieties need more shade than non-variegated ones.

A part of "learning bonsai" is learning what varieties suit your particular micro climate.

The best way to find out what does well in your area is to join a local bonsai club or society, and find out what trees do well for most of the members. Start with something easy, there's much to learn! Then once you get the easy ones going well, you can progress on to more difficult (or trees with more demanding conditions).

Your statement about the tree dying in the draught is equivalent to someone complaining that their car runs out of gas because they refuse to stop at the gas station. Not the car's fault.

You can't really compare the performance of a particular cultivar to the species, either. By nature, dwarfed or variegated cultivars are less vigorous...that's why you don't tend to see them in bonsai culture.

 

[Adair M]

Just saying in my experience that thunbergii is tough to grow here.

I've seen larger ones in landscapes, they tend to get chlorotic and seem to suffer in the heat a little bit.

Bonsai trees don't grow in "native soil". We provide an ideal soil, water, fertilizing program to ensure the tree has the best growing conditions possible. They are not left to survive on their own.

 

[Txhorticulture]

Adair your trees are great, not trying to say JBP isn't a good species for bonsai just wondering why it seems to be the dominant species.

And I think the consensus is it is a very tough adaptable tolerant plant for most people in most places.

And just pointing out that some other pines might also make beautiful bonsai. Here's a pick of a pinus patula sapling.

 

[Adair M]

Tex, I listed a dozen of characteristics of why JBP make superior bonsai.

I've never seen a pinus patula bonsai. Doesn't mean there aren't any, I just haven't seen any.

But, the drooping (or weeping) foliage is problematic. Usually we don't use trees that grow that way for bonsai, except as a novelty. Weeping willow comes to mind. Hardly ever see one as bonsai.

I listed the JBP traits earlier.

For bonsai, the things that made a species desirable are (in no particular order): The tree can be made to look like an old tree at an early age, the tree is long lived, the foliage is in scale with the tree, it's easy to build sizeable trunks, the tree has short internodes, ramification is easy to achieve, the tree tolerates living in a container, the tree tolerates root work, the tree tolerates frequent pruning, the tree tolerates wiring, the tree does not randomly sluff off branches, the tree heals scars well, the tree is relatively insect resistant and disease resistant, and the tree is relatively adapatable for living at different climate zones.

There's probably more, but that's what I came up with on the fly.

Now, with the JBP in particular, the tree has been cultivated as bonsai for centuries. The hows, why's and wherefore's are well documented. With the following caveat: There is a lot of MIS-information out there as well. Well meaning people may pass on erroneous information without realizing it. Which confuses people. Particularly beginners. Older books do not have the current techniques. So, lots of people go to the library for information about bonsai when they first get started. And check out books. And those books may be outdated.

I recommend to anyone just getting started with JBP begin by reading Brian Van Fleet's excellent on-line book at www.nebaribonsai.com. He has documented the process with words and pictures, and following his program is an excellent way to start!

 

[Adair M]

Tex, remember, this is a Japanese hobby. There are way more bonsai in Japan than exist anywhere else in the world.

I've never been to Japan, but I've seen lots of pictures.

I'm guessing that fully half of all bonsai in Japan are JBP.

I'll ask some of my friends who have been there what their guess is.

 

[bonsairxmd]

I think as a beginner (myself included) it is better to work with species that do well in one's own climate/region and have been proven to do well as bonsai rather than trying to reinvent the wheel until some experience is obtained. Otherwise it is likely a long road of continual failures with high chances of not sticking with the hobby. If you don't see a species around much as a bonsai then there is likely a good reason as to why.

 

[larlamonde]

The black pine is a sacred tree with spiritual meaning in Japan and has a long history of bonsai there. Some of the oldest bonsai on the planet are some type of pine and usually from Japan or China. When bonsai was introduced to the rest of the world the JPBs were some of the first trees we were in awe of. Steeped in tradition over time they are the benchmark all others are compared to.

 

[markyscott]

I can promise you that JBP grow excellently well in our climate. I'm not familiar with the variegated cultivar, but Ban Sho Ho should do great. It's a matter of learning how to do it.

That said, I share your enthusiasm for native pine species, but one has to learn how to grow them - problem is, it's much more poorly documented. When can you do root work? How to reduce needles? When best to fertilize? Pests and diseases? Single flush or two? Can they be grown in our climate? Etc.. All of this can be worked out, but it takes time. The JBP has hundreds of years of cultivation experience behind it which makes it much easier for people to come along and pick it up. There are literally hundreds of books and blog postings and teachers who can tell you what to do and when to do it. But try and find something on the slash pine. I think we'll get there, but it will take some time and experimentation to figure out which species will adapt well to bonsai culture.

Here are a bunch of natives that I know have been tried with some success:

Pinus aristata - Bristlecone
P. cembroides - Pinyon
P. contorta - Lodepole
P. elliotti - slash pine
P. flexilis - Limber
P. monticola - Western white
P. ponderosa - Ponderosa
P. radiata - Monterey
P. resinosa - American red
P. rigida - Pitch pine
P. strobus - Eastern white
P. taeda - Loblolly
P. virginiana - Jersey pine

Of this list, the ponderosa is by far the most common native. The ones on the list that have the best chance of surviving in San Antonio are probably the pinyon, the slash, the loblolly, the Monterey, and the Virginia. The only one I've had personal experience growing in Texas is the loblolly (the 3 I've had all died after repotting - but grew great until then). What did I do wrong? Who knows - maybe I should try a summer repotting. Maybe I was too aggressive with the root work. Maybe they don't tolerate root work at all (that would be bad). So I'll try something different next time. It's kind of a trial and error thing to be a trailblazer - and full of disappointments. So, most people stick with what works.

I've also grown bristlecone, but not in Texas.

So, I share your enthusiasm. I'd like to see more native pines brought to bonsai culture. Consider learning the seasonal routines associated with well documented pines in bonsai culture (JBP, JWP, mugo, scots, ponderosa etc) so you can adapt those practices for native species. And then go for it! And let the rest of us know how you did it.

Scott

 

[Txhorticulture]

Correction

Just remembered my variegated pine was 'shirome janome'.

I have a bunch of pinyons, several species,.... East texas is much more forgiving than central texas for many of those you mentioned. The Lovett pinetum has tried many of those and many have failed.

I'm mostly interested in trying mexican species. Little trivia for you, Mexico has more species of pine trees than the rest of the world combined.

I can't wait for my patula seedlings to grow, supposedly it is an extremely fast species (definitely worth trying in Houston by the way!)

 

[markyscott]

I have a bunch of pinyons, several species,.... East texas is much more forgiving than central texas for many of those you mentioned. The Lovett pinetum has tried many of those and many have failed.

Cooler, higher humidity, but warmer nights and a less reliable dormant period. We all wrestle with climate demons.

I'm mostly interested in trying mexican species. Little trivia for you, Mexico has more species of pine trees than the rest of the world combined.

I can't wait for my patula seedlings to grow, supposedly it is an extremely fast species (definitely worth trying in Houston by the way!)

Fascinating. I had no idea. Mexico also has a growing bonsai culture. Consider getting in touch with Pedro Morales - he leads several study groups in Mexico. Perhaps he can point you to which Mexican pine species have been tried with success and if there are special care considerations to be aware of. Can't wait to see your patula seedlings grow up - you'll be taking all of us to school in no time.

Scott

 

[William N. Valavanis]

I disagree with several of the above comments.

Japanese black pine is NOT as winter hardy as Japanese five-needle pine. Look where they occur naturally in Japan. Japanese black pine is near the sea. Japanese five-needle pines are from the mountains. The seaside is much warmer than the mountains. Just this past winter two of my most skilled and accomplished students lost all their Japanese black pine, overwintered in their garages, the same way as in the past 20 some years.

I have found Scots pine to be quite similar in feeling as the Japanese pine species and is much more winter hardy, and that's of paramount importance when you live in frigid areas of our country. A few of my Scots pine are quite spectacular, and truth be told I could easily give up Japanese black pine and concentrate on Scots pines.

I've been throughout Japan and also visited several cities in China. There are more bonsai in China, not Japan. You can't really make that statement unless you have actually been there, really. Also, I think it would be a toss up between Japanese five-needle pine and Japanese black pine as the most popular in Japan, probably Japanese five-needle pine is most abundant.

Many of the most common Japanese bonsai training techniques were first discovered using Japanese five-needle pine. Then the popularity of Japanese black pine increased and specialists who lived near the sea, where these pines are native to used them to create bonsai commercially. They experimented and found the Japanese black pine to be quite responsive. Saichi Suzuki was THE pine master in Japan, although he is most famous for introducing Zuisho Japanese five-needle pine.

I find it amusing that so many people on the internet make comments on bonsai in Japan who have never actually been there to see what is happening.

Attached are a couple of my Scots pines, all container grown, never been in the ground, and only occasionally placed on the ground temporarily. The formal upright Scots pine is shown in May 2006, May 2013 and May 2014. Now, the last photo does not do the tree justice. It was pinched to control the new growth for display in the US National Bonsai Exhibition. It looks superb. If you want to see it you can visit the Midwest Bonsai Show next weekend in Chicago, or even better, come to Rochester, NY on September 13-14th to see it, PLUS over 200 of the finest bonsai in the United States. Yes, there will be many Japanese black pines and numerous other species and cultivars as well. Or you can purchase the forthcoming 4th US National Bonsai Exhibition Commemorative Album.

Bill

 

[Txhorticulture]

Wow

All fantastic specimens. Scots pine isn't an alternative for me personally in my low latitude, humid, subtropical climate. Thank you for sharing your pictures.

 

[markyscott]

I disagree with several of the above comments.

Japanese black pine is NOT as winter hardy as Japanese five-needle pine. Look where they occur naturally in Japan. Japanese black pine is near the sea. Japanese five-needle pines are from the mountains. The seaside is much warmer than the mountains. Just this past winter two of my most skilled and accomplished students lost all their Japanese black pine, overwintered in their garages, the same way as in the past 20 some years.

I have found Scots pine to be quite similar in feeling as the Japanese pine species and is much more winter hardy, and that's of paramount importance when you live in frigid areas of our country. A few of my Scots pine are quite spectacular, and truth be told I could easily give up Japanese black pine and concentrate on Scots pines.

Thanks Bill, and your Scots pines are really great. I agree completely about the cold hardiness of the pines you mentioned, but here in the nearly tropics we have the opposite problem. Our wintertime highs hover around 65 degrees or so with occasional plunges into the 20s or 30s. Scots pine, white pine, mugo pine, as beautiful as they are, are really challenging here because of the lack of a reliable dormant period. Even last winter (which was quite cold for south Texas) the temperature only dipped below freezing on a few occasions and never for more than a couple of days. Then right back up to the mid sixties. San Antonio has a bit more extended and reliable cold period. Black pine are reliable here, but then cold hardiness is generally not our problem. Can you suggest other pine species we can try?

Scott

 

[Vance Wood]

Hey Vance las pillatas has one gallon size

http://www.laspilitas.com/nature-of-california/plants/pinus-edulis

Forestfarm has tube size of edulis and single needle pinyon (monophylla). http://www.forestfarm.com/product.php?id=3457

I've ordered from forest farm many times. Awesome selection of plants and ray (owner) fantastic guy very knowledgeable.

I will have to check this guy out.

 

[Vance Wood]

Well, not watering a tree during a draught is a surefire way to kill one.

As to the golden tree, I'm not familiar with that variety. Usually variegated varieties need more shade than non-variegated ones.

A part of "learning bonsai" is learning what varieties suit your particular micro climate.

The best way to find out what does well in your area is to join a local bonsai club or society, and find out what trees do well for most of the members. Start with something easy, there's much to learn! Then once you get the easy ones going well, you can progress on to more difficult (or trees with more demanding conditions).

Your statement about the tree dying in the draught is equivalent to someone complaining that their car runs out of gas because they refuse to stop at the gas station. Not the car's fault.

Wow---you really don't have any people skills do you, you're right but you probably could have gotten away with saying nothing.

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks Bill, and your Scots pines are really great. I agree completely about the cold hardiness of the pines you mentioned, but here in the nearly tropics we have the opposite problem. Our wintertime highs hover around 65 degrees or so with occasional plunges into the 20s or 30s. Scots pine, white pine, mugo pine, as beautiful as they are, are really challenging here because of the lack of a reliable dormant period. Even last winter (which was quite cold for south Texas) the temperature only dipped below freezing on a few occasions and never for more than a couple of days. Then right back up to the mid sixties. San Antonio has a bit more extended and reliable cold period. Black pine are reliable here, but then cold hardiness is generally not our problem. Can you suggest other pine species we can try?

Scott

Thanks Bill I appreciate your input on a touchy subject. As to Texas? I think the best things are the Pinyons and other native species.

 

[Adair M]

I disagree with several of the above comments.

Japanese black pine is NOT as winter hardy as Japanese five-needle pine. Look where they occur naturally in Japan. Japanese black pine is near the sea. Japanese five-needle pines are from the mountains. The seaside is much warmer than the mountains. Just this past winter two of my most skilled and accomplished students lost all their Japanese black pine, overwintered in their garages, the same way as in the past 20 some years.

I have found Scots pine to be quite similar in feeling as the Japanese pine species and is much more winter hardy, and that's of paramount importance when you live in frigid areas of our country. A few of my Scots pine are quite spectacular, and truth be told I could easily give up Japanese black pine and concentrate on Scots pines.

I've been throughout Japan and also visited several cities in China. There are more bonsai in China, not Japan. You can't really make that statement unless you have actually been there, really. Also, I think it would be a toss up between Japanese five-needle pine and Japanese black pine as the most popular in Japan, probably Japanese five-needle pine is most abundant.

Many of the most common Japanese bonsai training techniques were first discovered using Japanese five-needle pine. Then the popularity of Japanese black pine increased and specialists who lived near the sea, where these pines are native to used them to create bonsai commercially. They experimented and found the Japanese black pine to be quite responsive. Saichi Suzuki was THE pine master in Japan, although he is most famous for introducing Zuisho Japanese five-needle pine.

I find it amusing that so many people on the internet make comments on bonsai in Japan who have never actually been there to see what is happening.

Attached are a couple of my Scots pines, all container grown, never been in the ground, and only occasionally placed on the ground temporarily. The formal upright Scots pine is shown in May 2006, May 2013 and May 2014. Now, the last photo does not do the tree justice. It was pinched to control the new growth for display in the US National Bonsai Exhibition. It looks superb. If you want to see it you can visit the Midwest Bonsai Show next weekend in Chicago, or even better, come to Rochester, NY on September 13-14th to see it, PLUS over 200 of the finest bonsai in the United States. Yes, there will be many Japanese black pines and numerous other species and cultivars as well. Or you can purchase the forthcoming 4th US National Bonsai Exhibition Commemorative Album.

Bill

Thanks, Bill, you were actually the person I was thinking of contacting, because I knew you'd know!

And I had never considered that there would be more bonsai in China than Japan! I guess I should give myself a head slap... that's where all the Antique Chinese Pots come from!

I based my erroneous guess on Jonas's blog, "Bonsai Tonight". He has traveled extensively in Japan. And he shows a lot of JBP. Maybe because that's the kind he likes, I don't know.

I did predicate my guesses, with: "I'm guessing..."

Thanks for setting the record straight.