Water butt system

[petegreg]

Pellets and cakes are woefully in adequate for inorganic soil mixes. They aren't taken up as quickly as "chemical" fertilizers by plant roots. They also require microbes to break them down into useable components to some extent. Superfast draining inorganic soils will neither allow the fertilizer to persist in the soil, nor are they the most hospitable to microbe colonies. Not to mention that the waste left behind by the pellets can clog the soil's drainage and not in a good way.

I should add, however...this can depend on WHAT KIND of inorganics you're using, Stuff like akadama and pumice can hold onto nutrients better than crushed rock like granite.

I have read this statement many times. I agree these organic fertilizers can be released and used by plant slower. Maybe watering with aqua water and using diluted ino. fertilizer once or two times a month helps me to beat this problem. Next season I can switch to inorganic fertilizer to compare it.

Some tea bags and fertilizer baskets are good to prevent the waste from organic pellets from getting onto the soil.

 

[coh]

I think if you put organic cakes or tea bags on top of the soil, microbes will break down the components gradually and the nitrogen, etc will wash down into the soil with every watering. Some will of course wash through, but not all. Also, I've had plant roots grow up into tea bags pretty aggressively at times (especially ficus). I generally use both organic and powdered/inorganic fertilizer, though more of the latter simply because of the convenience and the fact that I know exactly how much I'm putting in the pot.

 

[ConorDash]

That's a reasonable starting point, but I know the water quality reports available for our local system don't have all the parameters you might be concerned with for growing plants. Maybe that is not the case elsewhere.

Thank you for that suggestion, but I don't think I'll need to go that in depth with the tap water exactly. The topic started as more of a question on the knowledge of water butt systems, physical setup and then quickly went in to which water is best for bonsai. I'm not too worried about if I used tap water for my bonsai, but I did want to just know if there was any tangible benefits or drawbacks. Of which, there doesn't seem to be.. (overall, in general, of course there will be extenuating circumstances).

 

[ConorDash]

I have read this statement many times. I agree these organic fertilizers can be released and used by plant slower. Maybe watering with aqua water and using diluted ino. fertilizer once or two times a month helps me to beat this problem. Next season I can switch to inorganic fertilizer to compare it.

Some tea bags and fertilizer baskets are good to prevent the waste from organic pellets from getting onto the soil.

I think if you put organic cakes or tea bags on top of the soil, microbes will break down the components gradually and the nitrogen, etc will wash down into the soil with every watering. Some will of course wash through, but not all. Also, I've had plant roots grow up into tea bags pretty aggressively at times (especially ficus). I generally use both organic and powdered/inorganic fertilizer, though more of the latter simply because of the convenience and the fact that I know exactly how much I'm putting in the pot.

I have to admit, this in depth detail on the ferts and different sides to it all is a little overwhelming for me. I don't know whether that's just because of me as a person or because I'm a very new beginner, but it is nonetheless.
I think I just want to find a good scheme and stick to it. I'm attracted to the idea of the physical pellet fert but I'm currently using a liquid one. If I could just get a sign of some kind that my liquid one is doing the job perfectly well enough then I'll stick with it. Just not that easy unfortunately.
I have made up some more fert, with a dilute of roughly 2x the normal dosage. Will give that to my trees over the next few cycles and see if there is any difference at all.
On my elm I use a mix of compost, pumice and perlite. And maple has a mix from Kaizen, commercial one so they didn't tell me the ingredients. It seems mostly inorganic from what I can tell. I am repotting both in spring and probably go inorganic completely, at which point I'll get ready with the knowledge of frequency of water, fertilising, dosage etc. Next spring will be a good start to put new knowledge to use! If they don't die over winter!!

From reading, it does look like, at the very least, I should be using a higher dosage. So that's a start!

 

[petegreg]

Ordering only once from KaizenBonsai I received the leaflet "Bonsai soil products" and the same is covered here http://www.kaizenbonsai.com/shop/bonsai-soil/kaizen-bonsai-soil-mixes , if it helps.

 

[ConorDash]

Ordering only once from KaizenBonsai I received the leaflet "Bonsai soil products" and the same is covered here http://www.kaizenbonsai.com/shop/bonsai-soil/kaizen-bonsai-soil-mixes , if it helps.

Yeh I've got 2 of those leaflets now lol. It's mix no. 2 but after reading the site, still doesn't tell me what exactly is in it.. I assumed I wasn't being stupid and it simply kept it secret because if they told people, it wouldn't be a good business strategy?

Says aggregates and bark. Bark being organic but the other bits... Unless you can see something I can't, I may just be stupid here, wouldn't be the first time.

 

[petegreg]

Nope, that's the science. I guess that mix will work for you well.

The picture I took from the leaflet introduces some of possible components.

 

[coh]

I'm still trying to figure it all out, but I've only been doing this for about 5 years. Initially I was under-fertilizing, using powdered inorganic fertilizers (like miracle gro) at about 1/2 strength every week-10 days. My trees weren't growing particularly well and a year or two ago I was talking to Bill V and mentioned this...he asked why I was using such a low dose of fertilizer? Basically because I'd so often heard the "weekly, weakly" admonition...since then I've gradually been increasing the dose and the trees have responded with better growth. I'm still not using the Walter Pall 5x dose, but something closer to what the package recommends. I also usually have a dosing system (ez-flo) running which provides a very low level fertilization with every watering.

Are your trees healthy and growing well? If so, you're probably OK with what you're doing. If you feel growth could be better, try gradually increasing the rate and see what happens. With some species you can run into problems with too much fertilizer which can encourage leaf problems.

If you know any other bonsai growers in your area, find out what they use.

Good luck.

Chris

 

[ConorDash]

Nope, that's the science. I guess that mix will work for you well.

The picture I took from the leaflet introduces some of possible components.View attachment 109569

Ah, I don't think my leaflet had that.. Anyway, I trust in the mix, just it'll be time for repotting it and I'd like to have it in a mix that I researched and put together myself, and more specific to that exact tree. The mixes they use are good, but good at being all round generic mixes.
Thanks for the extra info .
I'll probably get some opinions on people's Acer mixes nearer that time any way.

 

[ConorDash]

I'm still trying to figure it all out, but I've only been doing this for about 5 years. Initially I was under-fertilizing, using powdered inorganic fertilizers (like miracle gro) at about 1/2 strength every week-10 days. My trees weren't growing particularly well and a year or two ago I was talking to Bill V and mentioned this...he asked why I was using such a low dose of fertilizer? Basically because I'd so often heard the "weekly, weakly" admonition...since then I've gradually been increasing the dose and the trees have responded with better growth. I'm still not using the Walter Pall 5x dose, but something closer to what the package recommends. I also usually have a dosing system (ez-flo) running which provides a very low level fertilization with every watering.

Are your trees healthy and growing well? If so, you're probably OK with what you're doing. If you feel growth could be better, try gradually increasing the rate and see what happens. With some species you can run into problems with too much fertilizer which can encourage leaf problems.

If you know any other bonsai growers in your area, find out what they use.

Good luck.

Chris

Thanks . I've only 2 trees, and one is a small mallsai currently being air layered. The Maple is really my one I'm putting my effort in to (more so). It's currently not great. I've only had it a few months but its leaves seem to be not as healthy as they should be. I've a topic with pics over in the maple section, if you are interested. Anyway, for now, I'm giving it some time, better fert strategy, watering and partial shade, as opposed to full because it has a bit of scorch.
Thanks for your post

 

[petegreg]

I'm still trying to figure it all out, but I've only been doing this for about 5 years. Initially I was under-fertilizing, using powdered inorganic fertilizers (like miracle gro) at about 1/2 strength every week-10 days. My trees weren't growing particularly well and a year or two ago I was talking to Bill V and mentioned this...he asked why I was using such a low dose of fertilizer? Basically because I'd so often heard the "weekly, weakly" admonition...since then I've gradually been increasing the dose and the trees have responded with better growth. I'm still not using the Walter Pall 5x dose, but something closer to what the package recommends. I also usually have a dosing system (ez-flo) running which provides a very low level fertilization with every watering.

Are your trees healthy and growing well? If so, you're probably OK with what you're doing. If you feel growth could be better, try gradually increasing the rate and see what happens. With some species you can run into problems with too much fertilizer which can encourage leaf problems.

If you know any other bonsai growers in your area, find out what they use.

Good luck.

Chris

Either do I. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

I don't have many trees that would be still unpruned this season, maybe this funny crab pre-bonsai growing in a pot. This year's growth is marked with the red arrow, it's been 55 cm so far this year. Sorry for poor q. picture, it's evening here.

 

[Salcomine]

That's a reasonable starting point, but I know the water quality reports available for our local system don't have all the parameters you might be concerned with for growing plants. Maybe that is not the case elsewhere.

I must be lucky because our report is done every quarter, is broken down by pumping station and has everything pertinent to growing plants, ie calcium, magnesium and carbonate hardness, macro npk and micro nutrients, chlorine, sodium, pH, plus all the organics. I guess that's why working for the city is so good, lots to do.

 

[coh]

Thanks . I've only 2 trees, and one is a small mallsai currently being air layered. The Maple is really my one I'm putting my effort in to (more so). It's currently not great. I've only had it a few months but its leaves seem to be not as healthy as they should be. I've a topic with pics over in the maple section, if you are interested. Anyway, for now, I'm giving it some time, better fert strategy, watering and partial shade, as opposed to full because it has a bit of scorch.
Thanks for your post

Ah, I see the problem. You need more trees!

I just glanced through the maple thread. The photos in your first post are classic chlorosis in my opinion. Which can be caused by a variety of things...soil being too wet, improper fertilization, etc. Could be iron deficiency or some other trace element imbalance...they can be hard to sort out because symptoms overlap.

Did the leaves look like that when you got the tree? Are only the new leaves like that, or did older leaves which looked healthy, become discolored like that over time? I've had the same kind of thing happen to some trees. If you have not repotted the tree, you should check with the person who sold it to you and find out what they were using regarding fertilizer. Sorry if this is duplication from the maple thread, but I don't have time right now to read every post in detail.

Edit to add - can you tell us the composition of whatever fertilizer you've been using? The package should list the % of each ingredient (nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, and trace elements...also what form is the nitrogen...urea, ammonium, nitrate).

 

[ConorDash]

I must be lucky because our report is done every quarter, is broken down by pumping station and has everything pertinent to growing plants, ie calcium, magnesium and carbonate hardness, macro npk and micro nutrients, chlorine, sodium, pH, plus all the organics. I guess that's why working for the city is so good, lots to do.

Wow that's actually pretty cool.
As I said, I'm trying not to dive in to those depths of details too quickly now, as it really would be a running before I can walk situation but I'd still find that very cool! I don't know if my water is same as londons (I'm just outside in countryside) but if so, London is one of the main cities... If the world! So I'd like to think they would have that detail in a report too lol.

 

[ConorDash]

Ah, I see the problem. You need more trees!

I just glanced through the maple thread. The photos in your first post are classic chlorosis in my opinion. Which can be caused by a variety of things...soil being too wet, improper fertilization, etc. Could be iron deficiency or some other trace element imbalance...they can be hard to sort out because symptoms overlap.

Did the leaves look like that when you got the tree? Are only the new leaves like that, or did older leaves which looked healthy, become discolored like that over time? I've had the same kind of thing happen to some trees. If you have not repotted the tree, you should check with the person who sold it to you and find out what they were using regarding fertilizer. Sorry if this is duplication from the maple thread, but I don't have time right now to read every post in detail.

Edit to add - can you tell us the composition of whatever fertilizer you've been using? The package should list the % of each ingredient (nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, and trace elements...also what form is the nitrogen...urea, ammonium, nitrate).

Indeed I do. I plan to. Just want to get through this winter first, then spring I'll be doing stuff! Lots of stuff. I hope.

I'd love to discuss it, as long as people don't get annoyed with the off topic discussion.

I took frequent pictures of it when I got it, up to a month or so then gave up (I had a plan for all the pics but gave up). I just looked through the pics and from what I can see, none of them have any markings of the scorch like it has it now so I'd maybe go so far as to say it didn't come with these problems, which is worrying! I will check tomorrow, on it to see if I can identify whether it is just new growth doing it, or if it is affecting the existing growth. Thats a very good point, logical thinking, I like that thank you . Will confirm tomorrow on that one.

It is from Kaizen bonsai, Graham Potter. I spoke to him about repotting and he said it has been in the pot 2 years, will be fine to repot in spring, which I plan on doing. He is a reputable dealer, whom many know so I trust his care of it. I don't know what fertiliser he used, that is something I could ask him. Although they advertise their own fertiliser mix, pellets, so I would assume it's that, but I can ask.

The one thing I have not been doing correctly, which may have caused all of this is watering and fert when I got it, my first tree is a lot smaller and in a smaller pot with different soil mix and I think I've been misjudging the amount of water to give the maple so not been giving it enough. Also only just started to fertilise it 3-4 days ago, and I've had it for 4 weeks now.

And finally I've been using Chrysal bonsai food, liquid fert. It's 4,6,6.
4% - Nitrogen, (2% nitric, 2% ammonical)
6% - water soluble phosphorus, pentoxide
6% - water soluble potassium, oxide

Trace of boron, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, zinc.

I hope that means a lot more to you than me! I've read up about the NPK, and what each of those elements do, but past that, not so much.
This is the fert I was given with my Chinese elm, which was a mallsai, so I've little confidence in it being a very good or suitable fert, but it is something until I put in place a better strategy.
Feel free to PM instead, if you'd prefer by the way. Appreciate your time and effort with your posts

 

[JudyB]

and as a heat sink in a greenhouse

I use mine in this way...

 

[Shima]

I put this up yesterday and it disappeared. 10,000 gallons of rain water off the roof. No minerals and acidic thanks to Kilaeua Volcano 10 minutes from here. UV and 2 micron filter for inside.

 

[ConorDash]

I put this up yesterday and it disappeared. 10,000 gallons of rain water off the roof. No minerals and acidic thanks to Kilaeua Volcano 10 minutes from here. UV and 2 micron filter for inside. View attachment 109588

You have have a volcano next to you, that's unfair. Lol.

Im not sure I understand your post. Im guessing your point is you only ever used rain water?
Great looking tree, of course.
And that one in the right corner that we can barely see, looks good.
Aside from the tree even, the nebari and pot itself, with moss on soil all looks prestine

 

[Shima]

You have have a volcano next to you, that's unfair. Lol.

Im not sure I understand your post. Im guessing your point is you only ever used rain water?
Great looking tree, of course.
And that one in the right corner that we can barely see, looks good.
Aside from the tree even, the nebari and pot itself, with moss on soil all looks prestine

Yes, on bonsai, on me and in me. Here's the pyracantha in flower. I especially like the rear view. It's making berries now. It's a full time job keeping up with the lichen. and yes, I'm behind. But soon everything will be under plastic so I can have more control.

 

[M. Frary]

Hold up.... I am lost!! I thought "water butt" is what you get from eating at Taco Bell!

I thought they were talking about what hapens to me on hot days.