Ulmus Parvifolia Yatsubusa

"A mutation becomes a cultivar of the original species. It is propagated ( or cultivated) by vegetive means only, cutting, grafting, layer. It does not hold true and will revert or suspend mutation over time."

really? Are you saying that the plant that we are referring to will lose it's traits over time and revert back to a regular chinese elm?
 
NO, the trunk and all the traits it has now will always be there. The tree will over time left to its own accord without pruning back to small foliage will begin to throw shoots of the original elm tree it was cultivated from. This may take as many as twenty or more years to happen. I will have some pictures of a couple this weekend from some old elms in Fresno. Like these few. These were shot a few months back when leaves were first coming out. Now that they have a few months on them I will post some pics of the foliage. These are large old trees.

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NO, the trunk and all the traits it has now will always be there. The tree will over time left to its own accord without pruning back to small foliage will begin to throw shoots of the original elm tree it was cultivated from. This may take as many as twenty or more years to happen. I will have some pictures of a couple this weekend from some old elms in Fresno. Like these few. These were shot a few months back when leaves were first coming out. Now that they have a few months on them I will post some pics of the foliage. These are large old trees.

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You guys throw the word Yatsubusa around like it means something. It is a Japanese word not used in real plant taxonomy and simply means "small tufts" in Japanese. It is not used in the nursery trade because it has no meaning, any more than nishiki or arakawa. Currently in bonsai the word is used to define a rather "dwarf" species. Hokkaido and Seiju are both considered 'dwarf" species of ulmus.

So you guys seem to be argueing about a mutation of a mutation of a mutation? Ask yourself this can you grow seiju or yatsubusa from seed? What will happen if you plant both in the ground, will they hold true or do the continue to revert to elm foliage?

A mutation becomes a cultivar of the original species. It is propagated ( or cultivated) by vegetive means only, cutting, grafting, layer. It does not hold true and will revert or suspend mutation over time.

A variety is a plant from a plant that was grown from seed and retains all the caracteristics of the parent plant. It is true to the parent.

This is an acer palmatum. Period. It was grown from seed 35 years ago. Plain old green mountain maple. Hundreds of trees were planted. Most all made green maple palmatums. This is one that became a sport. What do we call it? Maybe a roughbark maple would be a good name. The Japanese word for rough bark is "Arakawa". All cultivars of Acer with rough bark are called Arakawa by the Japanese. It is a cultivar and not a variety. I can reproduce this by cutting and grafting only.
I'm not a horticulturalist or a plant geneticist, but I have a background in genetics. The ability to propagate a cultivar through seed would have to do with the nature of the, presumably, genetic lesion(mutation) and has nothing to do fundamentally with how it arose or is propagated. The same is true of reversion, its likelihood would depend on the mutation. I assume very few cultivars have been characterized on a molecular (genetic) level, so knowledge of their ability to be propagated by seed is unknown, though most are likely difficult. Also, no two things are identical, so our ability to classify things as identical is limited by our ability to distinguish like objects and our desire to classify things.
 
Exactly, the very reason why I responded is because of this post and his asinine ignorance of the term, "yatsubusa".
I assume it is yatsubusa because Brent identified and sold it as yatsubusa. I think I'd take Brent's ID over someone thinking he or she could ID it from a picture on a website.

Cultivars in the nursery business are like labradoodles in the AKC. No one wants breeds watered down with stupid hybrids of the pure stock. Because of the Bonsai trade many of the cultivars we use do not exist in the nursery business.

Go into a nursery and ask for a Seiju elm or a corkbark pine or a arakawa maple. They will look at you like you are stupid or something.
 
While we're waiting for more pictures, I Googled 'ulmus parvifolia yatsubusa' and got some interesting material. Notice that the last entry references Bill Valavanis.

http://dictionary.sensagent.com/Ulmus_parvifolia_'Yatsubusa'/en-en/

It was an article he wrote about a certain Seiju he got from Carl and Shin Young of Lodi, propagators of the cultivar in International Bonsai. It is a good article about removing a branch and wishing he could get it back. very interesting read. I kept the magazine in my work truck for a couple years with a few more and read them over and over at lunch for years.

The wikipedia writer has to have had an interest in bonsai. There is no other way that obscure publication about a genetic mutation of a genetic mutation would be mainstream information.

I could go to the local mall and line up 100 people and ask them about a Seiju elm or International Bonsai, and I'll bet the bets pretty safe that the 100 will have no clue what I am talking about.
 
I found the magazine with the tree on the cover.

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Currently in bonsai the word is used to define a rather "dwarf" species. Hokkaido and Seiju are both considered 'dwarf" species of ulmus.
While we're being pedantic (which I rather appreciate), it's worth mentioning that "species" does not simply mean "kind." Specifically, parvifolia is a species in the genus Ulmus; other species in the genus include things like alata and americana. Named cultivars, varieties, sports, etc. are decidedly NOT SPECIES! If it doesn't have a binomial Latin name described and published in a scientific journal, then it isn't a species!
This seems to be a common mistake among gardeners, and it's like nails on a chalkboard to a biologist.
 
Yet ANOTHER reason for bonsai snobs/faddists to stop tossing around Japanese words they haven't the foggiest notion about (or even when they do!).
 
I could go to the local mall and line up 100 people and ask them about a Seiju elm or International Bonsai pretty much anything, and the bet's pretty safe that the 100 will have no clue what I am talking about.

Important stuff like who their Senator is or who the Vice President is?
 
I still think that cultivar names like yatsubusa have plenty of meaning. I did not know that any reversion was possible, and now have a better idea of exactly what the terms cultivar and sport mean. It is interesting.
 
Thanks for the lesson on "varieties" versus "cultivars." I probably use the term interchangeably, and likely am not technically correct at times, but then again I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys my trees.

Like others have said, "yatsubusa" and other names are what Brent is using, so I'm perfectly happy going with those names - technically correct or not. If anything, it gives those of us who have bought these corkers from Brent a frame of reference as to what plants we are talking about.
 
Thanks for the lesson on "varieties" versus "cultivars." I probably use the term interchangeably, and likely am not technically correct at times, but then again I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys my trees.

Like others have said, "yatsubusa" and other names are what Brent is using, so I'm perfectly happy going with those names - technically correct or not. If anything, it gives those of us who have bought these corkers from Brent a frame of reference as to what plants we are talking about.
All well and good, yet what we have is an "elm" with cancer.
 
Lin
While we're being pedantic (which I rather appreciate), it's worth mentioning that "species" does not simply mean "kind." Specifically, parvifolia is a species in the genus Ulmus; other species in the genus include things like alata and americana. Named cultivars, varieties, sports, etc. are decidedly NOT SPECIES! If it doesn't have a binomial Latin name described and published in a scientific journal, then it isn't a species!
This seems to be a common mistake among gardeners, and it's like nails on a chalkboard to a biologist.

King Phillip Came Over Frothing Green Seas.
 
While we're being pedantic (which I rather appreciate), it's worth mentioning that "species" does not simply mean "kind." Specifically, parvifolia is a species in the genus Ulmus; other species in the genus include things like alata and americana. Named cultivars, varieties, sports, etc. are decidedly NOT SPECIES! If it doesn't have a binomial Latin name described and published in a scientific journal, then it isn't a species!
This seems to be a common mistake among gardeners, and it's like nails on a chalkboard to a biologist.
My apoligies, You misunderestimated me. I meant to say spec-i-fi-cation or spec-i-fy, or my favorite spec-i-mena-fication. I'm pretty sure most of those are Latin. I'm thinkin the correct word would have been cultivarius. I know that's Latin cause it rhymes with Flavius.
 
The Japanese word “yatsubusa” literally means “eight buds or cluster of buds”. It is used to describe plants which are dwarf in plant character, have multiple buds, often with small foliage, generally easy to root from cuttings and often the ability to maintain growth in the inner shady branches.


Yatsubusa variants have been selected in Japan with Pinus parviflora, Pinus thunbergii, Pinus densiflora, Picea glehnii, Acer palmatum, Acer buergerianum, Ulmus parvifolia, Zelkova serrata and numerous others used for bonsai training. There are hundreds of yatsubusa cultivars with over 50 of Pinus parviflora alone.


Named variants often use the word yatsubusa, such as Ulmus parvifolia ‘Yatsubusa’ which therefore denotes the cultivar name as simply ‘Yatsubusa’. The Seiju elm, Ulmus parvifolia ‘Seiju’ is in the dwarf or yatsubusa grouping of Elms. It originated as a bud mutation on another yatsubusa elm, Hokkaido elm, Ulmus parvifolia ‘Hokkaido’. This excellent plant was selected, named and introduced by H. Carl Young of Seiju-en Bonsai Garden in Lodi, California in 1975.


The Yatsubusa Chinese elm, Ulmus parvifolia ‘Yatsubusa’ is a totally different cultivar from Seiju elm and did not originate as a sport from Seiju elm. Yatsubusa Chinese elm is a considerably older cultivar than the Seiju Chinese elm. Although the bark may seem similar, the Yatsubusa Chinese elm is a bit more finer textured than the Seiju Chinese elm.


When studying plants I usually plant cuttings in the garden to observe their growth habits and often compare them to other cultivars of the same species. I find it interesting to see how large the foliage is naturally and usually use those larger branches for cuttings. The foliage reduces quite quickly when container grown and even smaller when trimmed for bonsai training.


Over 20 years ago I took a cutting from my Yatsubusa Chinese elm and planted it in one of my bonsai display gardens next to the garage. It grew, and grew and grew, now over 20 feet tall with a trunk base of nearly 24 inches. A photo is attached of the entire tree. But I need to mention that I often remove heavy sections of the tree for cuttings and also for demonstrations to show the natural growth. The foliage on the giant garden tree still has the same elongated shape with pronounced leaf margins, only larger.


Both Yatsubusa Chinese elm and the Seiju Chinese elm are superb dwarf cultivars for bonsai training. If I had to make a choice, I’d train Seiju Chinese elm rather than the Yatsubusa Chinese elm. But both are excellent.

Bill
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You've inspired me to plant some elms in my yard Bill...whenever I get around to buying a house :)
 
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