The Benefits for a Beginner Taking a Workshop?

[Apex37]

I still consider myself very new to bonsai, but going into my 3rd year in this hobby, I’m finding more of a desire to want to do a workshop having never done one before. My biggest hesitation? Cost.

You look at most seminars, it usually costs around $150 for a single day at a seminar, $300-$350 if you want to go for the whole weekend. Workshops usually start at $100-$200 and most of the time that doesn’t include the price of the tree for the actual workshop (unless you do bring your own tree). Trees for the workshops can average anywhere from $100-$500 depending. You see where I’m going with this.
So you take just a single day at the seminar and a single workshop, you’re spending about $500-$600. For me, that’s a lot of money. That of course doesn’t factor in costs like gas to get to the seminar, hotel cost if you’re staying more than one day, etc. I’m in no way saying that it isn’t worth that cost. I understand this is a very niche thing. These professionals are being flown in from all over the country (sometimes even from outside the country), have hotel cost for them, and dedicate their time to these seminars. I also know on the backend there’s so much work and costs that go into these things. At the same time though, being a mid/low income home, I have a hard time spending that much money on anything, much less something like a bonsai seminar for one day. I guess what I’m trying to ask is for those in a similar boat that took the dive, what were the biggest pros and cons you got out of doing a workshop? Is it really worth the cost and would you do it again?
I’d love to hear experiences from those still newish that decided to take a workshop for the first time.

 

[LuZiKui]

There was a European bonsai pro (Yannick Kiggen) traveling the states and our club hosted him for a workshop. I had only been in bonsai for about 1 year, so I was a bit hesitant, but the cost was reasonable ($100ish IIRC), and he is an expert at olive trees and I already had one.

The workshop was great, I asked a ton of questions and got some great hands on experience with him. The tree I had was decent but was in need of a major redesign. I did not have the skills to do that kind of work (I still don't really), so it wasn't going to happen without someone who knew what they were doing.

He was able to walk me through all of the major cuts/bends/pruning to put my tree on the right path. In addition, he helped wire parts of the tree and taught me some additional wiring techniques. All stuff that is very hard to learn from videos and forums. In fact, I still have the wire on the tree, and whenever I get stuck wiring another tree I will go back to that olive and see how he did it.

I'm right there with you, this is a hobby for me and with a family and other stuff going on, I choose not to spend a lot of money on bonsai. So, here's how I would decide whether or not to go:

• Is the pro/workshop focused on a tree that you currently have or are planning to grow?
• Are they teaching bonsai basics or is the class going to focus on a certain technique or type of tree? If it's just basics, I'd try to seek out people in your club or nearby and see if you can learn some of that from them in exchange for your time/help.

Also, don't forget this is a marathon, not a sprint. You can always take workshops in the future when your finances allow it. For now I'd stick to the criteria above to get the most bang for your buck.

 

[rockm]

I'd look at getting to know local "bonsai people" you can help if costs area concern. Asking local club members if they need free repotting/weeding/chore help in the spring or settling trees into winter storage might be a way to get less costly instruction. I don't know how much a $350 seminar with a "name" bonsai artist using advanced material would help a beginner with less than a couple of years experience. Might get some things but a lot of that info is not going to be as informative as it might.

 

[HENDO]

First of all I see you're in DFW, so I know you have access to some really great traveling artists and events - I spent a few years in TX and had good exposure to these myself.

I also had the opportunity to work on some of the upcoming LSBF convention workshop material in advance - Cedar Elms, huge P.Afras. It is GREAT healthy material and I would personally jump at the opportunity to own some of it.

Based on the above, and if you're referring to your local events, I'd say definitely worthwhile. I learned a lot from events like these, especially design/styling/wiring.

Some of the artists visiting TX when I was there, that'd I'd recommend working with: Boon, Todd Schlafer, Mike Lane, Jennifer Price.

I also agree with @LuZiKui comments above that the workshops should match your plans/interests, especially if you are being selective due to the associated costs.

 

[BrianBay9]

Most clubs host workshops run by the more advanced members of the club. Unless you include buying a tree, they usually come with the club membership. Join a club. It's a cheaper way to get you through the beginner stage.

 

[Apex37]

First of all I see you're in DFW, so I know you have access to some really great traveling artists and events - I spent a few years in TX and had good exposure to these myself.

I also had the opportunity to work on some of the upcoming LSBF convention workshop material in advance - Cedar Elms, huge P.Afras. It is GREAT healthy material and I would personally jump at the opportunity to own some of it.

Based on the above, and if you're referring to your local events, I'd say definitely worthwhile. I learned a lot from events like these, especially design/styling/wiring.

Funny you mention the LSBF convention, the Bonsai on the Bayou seminar next April is what spurred this post. That’s great to hear from someone who has seen the workshop material first hand! I’ll have to ponder over all this and try and decide what to do.

The FW Bonsai Club has hosted a few workshops, but I’ve noticed that these tend to skew towards more really beginner things (for example: repotting, how much roots to remove, how to properly anchor the tree into the pot, etc.). We did have a deadwood workshop with Brandon Baldauf, which was a nice change. Got to see a few deadwood techniques I hadn’t seen before. As a whole though, these workshops kinda seem disorganized and all over the place. Just an example, we got shut down by the Botanic Gardens (where we meet every meeting) because smoke from the deadwood workshop and they were afraid of fire alarms going off. One workshop I was really sad to have missed was we had Byron Myrick come and we were able to make pots with him, pick the glaze, etc. I missed that meeting because we had a really bad storm the night before and I had to spend all morning cleaning up my drive way and the road in front of my house because a few major limbs from our 60+ year old ash tree broke off. That was a frustrating morning lol

 

[Apex37]

Most clubs host workshops run by the more advanced members of the club. Unless you include buying a tree, they usually come with the club membership. Join a club. It's a cheaper way to get you through the beginner stage.

I am part of a local club, but we’ve never had a workshop lead by any members while I’ve been there. The workshops we do have are just locals that kinda pop in regularly (not part of the club) or every now and then we have an outside person from like the Austin or Houston clubs come in and do a workshop.

 

[BrianBay9]

I am part of a local club, but we’ve never had a workshop lead by any members while I’ve been there. The workshops we do have are just locals that kinda pop in regularly (not part of the club) or every now and then we have an outside person from like the Austin or Houston clubs come in and do a workshop.

Get together with other less experienced members and let the club leadership know this is a program you'd like to see.

 

[brentwood]

I am part of a local club, but we’ve never had a workshop lead by any members while I’ve been there. The workshops we do have are just locals that kinda pop in regularly (not part of the club) or every now and then we have an outside person from like the Austin or Houston clubs come in and do a workshop.

As a club, you need to be reaching out to artists - in our world that's what dues go for, expenses,shows, bringing in artists. We still pay for the workshops, but those costs are much less, the quality of artists much better... Something to discuss with the club. Our annual dues are around $30, but with a few members it adds up. We got Sergio in a few years ago, hard to downplay how helpful that was. Believe we doubled up with another club for a multiple day trip for him.
Also, seeking out young, new artists is a win-win: less expensive, gives them exposure.

Just a thought,
B

 

[HENDO]

Funny you mention the LSBF convention, the Bonsai on the Bayou seminar next April is what spurred this post. That’s great to hear from someone who has seen the workshop material first hand! I’ll have to ponder over all this and try and decide what to do.

The FW Bonsai Club has hosted a few workshops, but I’ve noticed that these tend to skew towards more really beginner things (for example: repotting, how much roots to remove, how to properly anchor the tree into the pot, etc.). We did have a deadwood workshop with Brandon Baldauf, which was a nice change. Got to see a few deadwood techniques I hadn’t seen before. As a whole though, these workshops kinda seem disorganized and all over the place. Just an example, we got shut down by the Botanic Gardens (where we meet every meeting) because smoke from the deadwood workshop and they were afraid of fire alarms going off. One workshop I was really sad to have missed was we had Byron Myrick come and we were able to make pots with him, pick the glaze, etc. I missed that meeting because we had a really bad storm the night before and I had to spend all morning cleaning up my drive way and the road in front of my house because a few major limbs from our 60+ year old ash tree broke off. That was a frustrating morning lol

In that case I would DEFINITELY recommend attending. I see they added Ashe Junipers to the schedule too which is a fun native.

I know the organizer personally and can vouch for the incredible effort & thought put into the event.

Plus: Bjorn, Sergio, and Mike Lane will be there among other greats - I wouldn't miss out on this one!

I'm starting to get jealous that you have the opportunity to attend and participate

 

[IckyGuyBonsai]

I have not attended any workshops/seminars for this exact reason. The most I've spent on a piece of material alone is I think $40 and even that had me second guessing myself. On top of that, I have a car that's on the verge of falling apart (and no running tail lights so I can't drive it after dark), so driving too far out of the way is a no go for me, let alone across town to the club meeting that runs til after dark. So all in all spending a hundred or 3 on bonsai related endeavours, just doesn't make sense for me, no matter how much I might enjoy it let alone benefit from it skill wise.

All that being said, I feel like I was extremely fortunate in how I was brought into bonsai as a hobby and the same options are not remotely available most places. I was able to snag a job at a bonsai specific nursery, so I was able to get a hands on crash course through repotting/watering/pruning of a wide variety of species in a wide variety of levels of development. When I left that job and moved across country, I realized just how sweet of a gig that really was because there really isn't anything like doing bonsai full time to learn and learn quickly. Since then I have been self taught in the sense of I read all the information I can find online and try to implement it on the trees that I have, and so far I do like to think that I am still progressing in my own skills without any specific "teacher." However it is a lot more slow going when I'm working my long day job hours and can only provide my trees some water, fertilizer, and shitty rental sun exposure.

From what I've seen it seems like bonsai is very attainable to anyone, but to seriously pursue it at a "high level", it takes a lot of money, or a lot of time, usually both. But for now, I'm young enough that I have more time than money. Also none of this is to discourage or 'blame' artists from charging whatever they value their time and skill at, I'm just not part of their target demographic.

 

[ChristianDGreat]

If you dont have the budget. Youtube and actual practice is the best route. This is the way i did mine. I never had a workshop.

Majority of the important lesson are already in the internet. Practicing and doing some actual work is the most important part.

Example proper wiring. Bonsai Mirai and Mauro already had a detailed video on how to do it. But practicing it in real tree is the most important part.

Its just mindset and perspective. Just imagine your workshop is the video or guide in youtube and practice it whenever you learn something.

Let me know if you have more question

 

[Mike Westervelt]

Early in my journey I took one day workshops because they were affordable, but didn't really feel like I "learned" much of anything.

Later decided to study with one person over a period of time, not inexpensive but the only real way to improve your knowledge and skillset IMHO.

So to summarize, if I'd saved the money spent all those workshops on trees I didn't really want and ended up killing cuz of ignorance, would have been able to justify affording a teacher sooner.

Again, my 2 cents, not knocking workshops, I did enjoy them.

 

[johng]

Traditional club workshops with 6-10 people for a couple hours and crappy material is a failed model and have never been effective for anyone...including the instructor...you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise! I stopped offering club workshops about 10 years ago specifically for this reason!

You are much better off from many perspectives by either finding someone in your area that you can work with regularly...even if it means you have to mow their grass, drive a couple hours, or do other labor in trade for learning opportunities in his or her garden (there is no substitute for hands-on one on one interactions), or saving your money and hiring someone to work with you individually (you need decent material to make this choice effective...the only thing you can learn from sticks in a pot is patience), or if you are well-healed, attending a series of "intensive style" workshops with a pro and his or her trees.

If your only choice is club workshops, choose the observer role (even if it is at a price or silent) You can learn a lot more by following the instructor from person to person than having that same instructor's attention for only 10-15 minutes during a three hour workshop. Alternatively if observer spots are not available, you can take the workshop and choose not to work on your tree during the workshop...instead follow the instructor from person to person, take notes, absorb, and try your hand later on the material.

For a couple years now I have been offering one on one workshops as an alternative to club workshops. I truly believe that the folks that have participated have come away with a far better learning experience and tree from these events than I ever did from a club or show workshop. I try hard to provide good to excellent material and to make the experience a good value for the money.

 

[BrianBay9]

Traditional club workshops with 6-10 people for a couple hours and crappy material is a failed model and have never been effective for anyone...including the instructor...you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise! I stopped offering club workshops about 10 years ago specifically for this reason!

You are much better off from many perspectives by either finding someone in your area that you can work with regularly...even if it means you have to mow their grass, drive a couple hours, or do other labor in trade for learning opportunities in his or her garden (there is no substitute for hands-on one on one interactions), or saving your money and hiring someone to work with you individually (you need decent material to make this choice effective...the only thing you can learn from sticks in a pot is patience), or if you are well-healed, attending a series of "intensive style" workshops with a pro and his or her trees.

If your only choice is club workshops, choose the observer role (even if it is at a price or silent) You can learn a lot more by following the instructor from person to person than having that same instructor's attention for only 10-15 minutes during a three hour workshop. Alternatively if observer spots are not available, you can take the workshop and choose not to work on your tree during the workshop...instead follow the instructor from person to person, take notes, absorb, and try your hand later on the material.

For a couple years now I have been offering one on one workshops as an alternative to club workshops. I truly believe that the folks that have participated have come away with a far better learning experience and tree from these events than I ever did from a club or show workshop. I try hard to provide good to excellent material and to make the experience a good value for the money.

Depends on where you are in your bonsai journey.

 

[johng]

Depends on where you are in your bonsai journey.

of course it does...primarily folks early in the journey here so that is how my answer was directed

 

[BrianBay9]

of course it does...primarily folks early in the journey here so that is how my answer was directed

Yes, perhaps I should have been clearer. Your approach is better, but for beginners not willing yet to invest in pricier workshops, a club workshop can provide them with much of the basic info they need initially. Yes, it may be a crappy tree, but now it's in a pot, with a discussion about appropriate soil, choosing a trunk line, perhaps how to choose better material for the next attempt. No doubt 1:1 is better, but a club workshop can be useful.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Traditional club workshops with 6-10 people for a couple hours and crappy material is a failed model and have never been effective for anyone...including the instructor...you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise! I stopped offering club workshops about 10 years ago specifically for this reason!

You are much better off from many perspectives by either finding someone in your area that you can work with regularly...even if it means you have to mow their grass, drive a couple hours, or do other labor in trade for learning opportunities in his or her garden (there is no substitute for hands-on one on one interactions), or saving your money and hiring someone to work with you individually (you need decent material to make this choice effective...the only thing you can learn from sticks in a pot is patience), or if you are well-healed, attending a series of "intensive style" workshops with a pro and his or her trees.

If your only choice is club workshops, choose the observer role (even if it is at a price or silent) You can learn a lot more by following the instructor from person to person than having that same instructor's attention for only 10-15 minutes during a three hour workshop. Alternatively if observer spots are not available, you can take the workshop and choose not to work on your tree during the workshop...instead follow the instructor from person to person, take notes, absorb, and try your hand later on the material.

For a couple years now I have been offering one on one workshops as an alternative to club workshops. I truly believe that the folks that have participated have come away with a far better learning experience and tree from these events than I ever did from a club or show workshop. I try hard to provide good to excellent material and to make the experience a good value for the money.

In principle I totally agree on the above.

Started out as observers for a year or two. (Actually going to observe Mauro Stemburger in a couple weeks). One learns an awful lot and occasionally folks will let you help by wiring etc.

When both of us gained the skills and confidence, we brought in specific trees, pointed out our thoughts and asked for help or other ideas to accomplish what should be done. This helped set the course for each tree. It was on us to follow up these ideas over time …. and practice, practice practice.

(Then next step for will be to bring these trees back to the same pro after couple years and see how the tree could progress. )

One caution, don’t bring the same developing tree to a different professional. One will hardly ever make substantial progress unless your scope of work is very very specific. Then that’s ok. But I’d never bring a tree to a pro like Dan Robinson, then next to Jonas. Their essential styles are radically different.

So I’d agree with @johng find someone, a pro, a person with advanced skills, and keep going back to them over and over. In our case are blessed to volunteer weekly at a high level collection. So it’s very similar situation to his suggestion… only we work on refined trees rather than developing trees and use workshops as a bridge to build our developing material.

Just food for thought to those reading.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Mike Westervelt]

One caution, don’t bring the same developing tree to a different professional. One will hardly ever make substantial progress unless your scope of work is very very specific. Then that’s ok. But I’d never bring a tree to a pro like Dan Robinson, then next to Jonas. Their essential styles are radically different.

This exactly, was at a Walter Pall workshop years ago and a participant brought a tree that he proudly announced Kimura had worked on, and Walter said "what do you expect me to do with that?"

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Workshops vary a lot in quality and content. I took one a few years ago given by a bonsai professional and didn’t get much from it other that a juniper. I then learned more from a 20 minute YouTube by Bjorn than in that 3 hour workshop. There are beginner workshops and advanced ones so pick the right one for you, just make sure you know what your expectations are and the presenter can meet them.