Reactions to the First Artisans Cup

[Dan W.]

Sorry, I'm taking this back to the scroll and "American Bonsai" discussion for a minute. I just read all 8 pages, and easily could have missed something, my apologies if I'm being redundant.

1. Aren't trees rather universal shapes? I mean there are some unique shapes to specific regions, but everyone you show a picture of a tree to will know that it's a picture of a tree... Even simply the silhouette will be enough for anyone to identify the tree as a tree. Bonsai can be shaped rather abstractly or to mimic a full grown tree as accurately as possible, but we're still working with living trees here; so.. much of "American Bonsai" has to be more about how we portray our culture and ideals, and how we set the scene than how we style the tree. Even if you take Crusts larch out of the vacuum and put it into a Japanese pot, it will not be so far off from a Japanese Bunjin. It looks like a tree, but it's displayed in a way that I imagine no Japanese person would ever think to do it.

2. I haven't been to the Kokufu show. But I've seen plenty of books and pictures of the show on the web... and I haven't seen one single scroll in the Kokufu. I don't know about other Japanese shows, but at least the largest one doesn't use scrolls in the exhibition. So I see no reason to fight about scrolls or no scrolls in our own competitions.

I like scrolls, and appreciate the thought process and the meaning behind them. Scrolls are meant to give a sense of place or time to the display; but I think they would have looked a bit out of place at this show. There are literally millions of different things we could use to replace the scroll in our American culture, and we should play with those things. I also like the idea of using a scroll with an American landscape, animal or something else on it.

Art is universal. Trees are universal. Why shouldn't Bonsai be universal?

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Dan, I had no problem with there not being any scrolls, and I don't think anyone actually had a problem with there not being scrolls.

 

[A Random User]

Sorry, I'm taking this back to the scroll and "American Bonsai" discussion for a minute. I just read all 8 pages, and easily could have missed something, my apologies if I'm being redundant.

1. Aren't trees rather universal shapes? I mean there are some unique shapes to specific regions, but everyone you show a picture of a tree to will know that it's a picture of a tree... Even simply the silhouette will be enough for anyone to identify the tree as a tree. Bonsai can be shaped rather abstractly or to mimic a full grown tree as accurately as possible, but we're still working with living trees here; so.. much of "American Bonsai" has to be more about how we portray our culture and ideals, and how we set the scene than how we style the tree. Even if you take Crusts larch out of the vacuum and put it into a Japanese pot, it will not be so far off from a Japanese Bunjin. It looks like a tree, but it's displayed in a way that I imagine no Japanese person would ever think to do it.

2. I haven't been to the Kokufu show. But I've seen plenty of books and pictures of the show on the web... and I haven't seen one single scroll in the Kokufu. I don't know about other Japanese shows, but at least the largest one doesn't use scrolls in the exhibition. So I see no reason to fight about scrolls or no scrolls in our own competitions.

I like scrolls, and appreciate the thought process and the meaning behind them. Scrolls are meant to give a sense of place or time to the display; but I think they would have looked a bit out of place at this show. There are literally millions of different things we could use to replace the scroll in our American culture, and we should play with those things. I also like the idea of using a scroll with an American landscape, animal or something else on it.

Art is universal. Trees are universal. Why shouldn't Bonsai be universal?

Here... let me clarify this
The argument was not over whether or not scrolls were used or not. .. the argument was over the proposed idea from Host of the Cup, Ryan Neil, according to the Poster of this thread, Bonsai Herald.... that scrolls are somehow not "American". This is what the poster Bonsai Herald, claims Ryan Neil said during the panel discussion at the Cup, in regards to not having scrolls at his show.

The argument was over this statement,
which clearly is preposterous, seeing that Bonsai itself is not even "American", so... to somehow say one is now "American", because one likes it and the other is not, because one does not like something... is like saying Italian food is "American", but German food is not... neither originate from America, one can claim one as American if you want, but claiming the other is somehow not... is what is called "Cherry Picking".

Now as far as the rest of your statement and other's statements, here on this thread regarding scrolls...
There are folks that don't see their purpose, or have no wish to use them... in their display of their bonsai... fine. But, please explain to folks who might want to use them in their display, why they should not be allowed because you don't want to use them, or feel they should use something else?

You claim Art is Universal... if this is true, is a Scroll not Art? Of course it is...

 

[garywood]

SAWGRASS, do you realize how big a question that is? If it is important - research - What is the audience? What is the venue? What size display, How many, What feeling, What is your statement in regards to the aforementioned. The questions go on and on. Define your show.

 

[A Random User]

SAWGRASS, do you realize how big a question that is? If it is important - research - What is the audience? What is the venue? What size display, How many, What feeling, What is your statement in regards to the aforementioned. The questions go on and on. Define your show.

What are you talking about?

 

[rockm]

The use of scrolls is tied closely to display, not necessarily to shows, in Japan. It's something to keep in mind.

Keido, which was a school of formal display in Japan, was a model for how to use scrolls, stands, etc. for some time. The Keido school used the traditional tokonoma displays in Japan as a starting point. The history and aesthetics of scrolls and other companion stuff is more rooted in that tradition like the Tea Ceremony than in shows. Shows have been more about the trees. The audiences for shows and displays are not necessarily the same. Audiences can vary from show to show--popular public exhibitions aren't the same as shows aimed at mostly a bonsai audience. The public will miss stuff in a 'bonsai' display and 'bonsai' people will complain about more publicly oriented shows because those shows appeal to a wider audience without some of the small stuff.
https://bonsaial.wordpress.com/the-art-of-display/
http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1550

 

[rockm]

Also ran across this quote on Walter Pall's FB page--Thoughts?

"The results show that the taste of the judges now goes towards the modern bonsai style as is the case in Europe since quite a few years. This means that the trees which make the biggest impression win. Quiet does not win awards. This too is a turning point. As speculator as this was not everybody will like the implications. Bonsai in America is now professional. The amateurs still have a chance though, but they must work professionally. I hope some way will be found to get the quiet trees which definitely should be in such a show but will not probably not win awards. There needs to be some thought to keep the broadleaved trees coming which have little chance against the conifer monsters."
https://www.facebook.com/walter.pall

 

[The Bonsai Herald]

Let me clarify too.

I heard what I heard. It was in the 1st Panel Discussion at the Cup on Saturday when they were talking to the design team of the cup.

Also, in my personal opinion, scrolls are not American. From my understanding, in Japan scrolls are a part of Japanese culture, even extensively outside the bonsai world there. I think that was Ryan's point. Even though bonsai indeed originated in Asia, when trying to make it American, parts of American culture should be used for the overall display.

I am not against scrolls, I actually have some that I quite like and use in displays. I'm just saying that I agree with Ryan that scrolls are not American, and not something that we should need in "American Bonsai", whatever that might be.

If I was going for a truly American display of one of my trees, I wouldn't use a scroll. If I was going for a traditional Japanese display of one of my trees, I would definitely consider it.

 

[rockm]

"Even though bonsai indeed originated in Asia, when trying to make it American, parts of American culture should be used for the overall display."

Part of the American tradition is also brutal honesty. I find this entire line of reasoning kind of silly and self-serving. If you don't like scrolls in your show, say so. no harm, no foul. The entire practice of bonsai isn't American or Western. It's aesthetics are particularly Asian. Trying to ignore that loses something. Mental calisthenics to justify excluding stuff doesn't do anyone any good.

The "American" stuff that replaced them in the show--skateboard decks? aren't up to the supporting task that a truly well-thought out painting or sculpture could fill. How are skateboard decks and piles of deadwood or rocks part of American culture? I'd argue that all that is kind of global in nature-- at least these days.

If I were going for an American display, I'd come up with a way to incorporate related AMERICAN or western themes. Plein aire landscape paintings, scroll sized paintings or pen and inks of American wildlife (eliminate the "scroll" part and keep the elongated painting), or use a surprising theme in the painting --graffiti art, native American tribal images pictographs, etc. Bronzes of north American wildlife are out there and many are in scale for bonsai display use. They're not cheap though...

 

[rockm]

BTW, By 'Western' I don't mean John Wayne western, I mean non-Asian, Western hemisphere...

 

[Chuah]

Also, in my personal opinion, scrolls are not American. From my understanding, in Japan scrolls are a part of Japanese culture, even extensively outside the bonsai world there. I think that was Ryan's point. Even though bonsai indeed originated in Asia, when trying to make it American, parts of American culture should be used for the overall display.
.

That hurts. I am an American of Asian descent. An organizer can define what can be included and what are to be excluded for the show, but to say scroll is not American? I have seen black velvet scroll of Elvis, at least in Texas. isn't that very uniquely American? Why use the word "Bonsai", wouldn't a "A Potted Tree" show be more American?

I went to the Artisans Cup, three trees impressed me:
Michael Pollock's hinoki cypress in a long rectangular pot full of moss, a journal and compass replaced the typical shitakusa; the display spoke to me of the American open space, a lone sentry, an adventurous and pioneering spirit.
The second tree is David Crust's larch in vacuum cleaner. I do not understand his statement that " it foretold our future doom under technology", but l like its quirkiness, originality, bold statement, and I thought that was very American.
The third display I like is Michael Hagedorn's Vine Maple. I instantly related it to Hokusai's erotic woodblock print, "The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife" The branches hung out from a rounded mound like tentacles of an octopus, reaching for something below. The display of crabs as accent, could be related to a fisherman's craft. From mine perspective, the display alluded to Hokusai's erotic print. This is probably not Michael's intention, but the power of suggestion evoking someone's past experience is what I like about this display. Many artists, such as Piccasso, were influenced by this print and had their own versions, why not Michael Hagedorn using bonsai as his medium as a homage to Hokusai?

By the way, I read somewhere in the post that crabs as accent in Michael's display IS American. NO, it is not. Japanese pots have crab motifs, and sometimes bronze crabs are used in bonsai displays. These are fresh water crabs and their use relates to mountains and streams. The trees in these three displays would be so so if taken individually, perhaps even considered amateurish. But as displays, they spoke to me and perhaps to other viewers too.

All the other trees, American and foreign species, though large, powerful and very impressive, are cloaked in Japanese culture. If BIG collected native trees, bent and wired according to some perceived Japanese aesthetic, defined American Bonsai, we at Texas would stake our first. Bonsai in Japan, Korea, China and Taiwan, they may look similar but they have distinct flavor if we look carefully.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Artisans Cup, and can only praise the Neils and their helpers and sponsors for putting out such a great show. Regardless of the debates on internet, it is a bold step towards American Bonsai. We just have not agree on what is "American" bonsai yet. Debates are necessary steps towards that goal. Who knows we Texan could come out with a cactus in a saddle pot, Texas bonsai or Texas kusamono????

Below is the link to Hokusai's erotic woodblock print:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dream_of_the_Fisherman's_Wife

 

[LanceMac10]

I have seen black velvet scroll of Elvis, at least in Texas.


"nuff said.

 

[quietobserver]

Here's an interesting statistical analysis of the judging linked to by bonsaitonight:


https://bonsaitonight.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/artisans_cup_2015_analysis.pdf

 

[Adair M]

Here's an interesting statistical analysis of the judging linked to by bonsaitonight:


https://bonsaitonight.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/artisans_cup_2015_analysis.pdf

Excellent!

This is a very good analysis of the problems I saw with the judging methodology. Maybe next time a method like this will be used.

 

[michaelj]

I have never seen a scroll at a bonsai exhibit that did not look distinctly Japanese. If we popularized the use of scrolls that were not clearly Japanese in style, just as we have popularized the use of trees and pots that are not clearly Japanese in style, perhaps I'd find Ryan Neil's comments more puzzling, but I think I understand what he meant. A bonsai display with a scroll appears very formal and very Japanese, and while there's certainly nothing wrong that, it's okay to not want that look in a particular show.

 

[whfarro]

Perhaps this is the future for displaying Bonsai. Scrap the scrolls and accent plants and pair the trees with a beautiful model.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

That's un'Murican, and much too chic.

 

[M. Frary]

Perhaps this is the future for displaying Bonsai. Scrap the scrolls and accent plants and pair the trees with a beautiful model.View attachment 84318

And then Carp gets a hold of her.

 

[Adair M]

That's un'Murican, and much too chic.

Yeah, she should be in a bikini...

 

[whfarro]

Yeah, she should be in a bikini...

Eatin' a Carl's Jr. Charbroiled Burger....haha