FiestaRed
Yamadori
Can anyone recommend a website that has advice on planting a forest grouping please? I'm looking for help such as an ideal layout, bigger trees to the front etc.
Layouts for Forest groupings
- Thread starter FiestaRed
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RJG2
Omono
Coin Toss Forest Design Exercise
If you’re seeking something bonsai-ish to do while socked in by a snow storm, this might be it. I’d heard of this exercise years ago but had never tried it. While it wasn’t snowing out (it was rain…
crataegus.com
Kanorin
Omono
If you can find it or borrow a copy, Sabuto Kato’s book, “Forest plantings, rock, and Ezo Spruce bonsai” is fantastic for this sort of inspiration.
However, while there are some aesthetic guidelines and tips for attaining a perspective of depth, I don’t believe there can be an “ideal layout.”
I also talk about Forest design in this thread of mine.
However, while there are some aesthetic guidelines and tips for attaining a perspective of depth, I don’t believe there can be an “ideal layout.”
I also talk about Forest design in this thread of mine.
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Shogun610
Masterpiece
I recently did an initial forest of American Hornbeam 2-3 year old seedlings , I counted about 31 , over the next few growing seasons I will likely cut down the ones that don’t fit the final design , but planting alot of seedlings together in a flat , then selecting your final grouping in future can be a good route. I did a forest on rock with Larches , and I don’t think I quite got the spacing down , but close up they are off center and you can see a gap that wil hopefully decrease as they grow on the rock. I also made a European beech forest last year, and failed at other mixed species forest. Collected black spruce that I planted super close in a grow box for an 3-5 tree forest .Tiny shohin maple forest I made with seedlings grown in a clump . Even a Black pine Forest / clump was potted up on the weekend. Basically what I’m saying is looking at books is great for inspiration but you’ll never know until your at the root level how the trees will fit , you just gotta make them better over time , but I think the best way ( unless you’re 80% sure how the pre developed trees roots are) starting with collected trees or seedlings in a flat is best approach to get the roots to matte together over a couple growing seasons. . I have 3 more Forest I’m making that I can attribute to the great books I’ve had but you also just gotta make them and keep feeling out the design as you do it. If you fail that’s okay that’s not a bad thing just do it.
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
Some great ideas.
One way to help the design is to leave out 2-3 trees, depending on the desired amount, from the initial design and pot each of these up separately: for a couple 2-3 years, then include these in on a repot to increase the sense of scale.
In the meantime do selective partial prune downs of the rest. Not my idea. I read this advice on BonsaiNut!
cheers
DSD sends
One way to help the design is to leave out 2-3 trees, depending on the desired amount, from the initial design and pot each of these up separately: for a couple 2-3 years, then include these in on a repot to increase the sense of scale.
In the meantime do selective partial prune downs of the rest. Not my idea. I read this advice on BonsaiNut!
cheers
DSD sends
Eckhoffw
Masterpiece
This I believe, is a great plan. I’ve done a number of forest planting that after initial planting and establishing, you find your leaders -or strongest- out competing the rest. Hopefully in the center! Then additional plants can be added to balance the composition.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
I've two books one on penjing and this other one. [Photos are not loading...will try back later ] Saikei: living landscape in miniature by Toshio Kawamoto. I looked through both books. End of the day...I drew inspiration from those and Google search on bonsai forests images. And studied tree placement...what feeling appealed to me most. And tried to mimic the tree placement. Separating the trees I used by size. Smaller in the back.
A #1 tree...and #2 tree can go a long way. In making a forest better. Which means selecting a nicer specimen than the rest...then one just slightly under that one in development.
A #1 tree...and #2 tree can go a long way. In making a forest better. Which means selecting a nicer specimen than the rest...then one just slightly under that one in development.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
A peek inside that book that I was unable to share earlier.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Saburo Kato's "Forest, Rock Planting and Ezo Spruce Bonsai" book mentioned before is the "go-to" book for forest compositions. It is unfortunately hard to find and expensive these days.
It contains the most detailed instructions and theory for forest plantings ever printed IMO. It provides literally dozens of composition layout templates, with tree sizes, placement in pots and the overall effect for each planting described. Sometimes bonsai clubs have books they lend out to members. Looks like the Derbyshire Bonsai club has a video and book library. Might be worth contacting them and asking if they have a copy to borrow.
It contains the most detailed instructions and theory for forest plantings ever printed IMO. It provides literally dozens of composition layout templates, with tree sizes, placement in pots and the overall effect for each planting described. Sometimes bonsai clubs have books they lend out to members. Looks like the Derbyshire Bonsai club has a video and book library. Might be worth contacting them and asking if they have a copy to borrow.
Fidur
Chumono
I'm guiding myself to make forests with this very interesting article
https://bonsaiq.jp/archives/367
https://bonsaiq.jp/archives/367
Shogun610
Masterpiece
Why not Share your experiences making forests
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Best advice--Most dominant tree towards the front, smaller in back (Duh). This builds forced perspective. Not completely necessary, but it helps sort things out initially on where to start.
Plant trees all together all at once in a shallow container keeping in mind that the closer they're planted together, the more convincing (for the most part) the composition will be. Avoid "regular" spacing between trees to avoid the one--two--three look, Work in groups of three or odd numbers if possible (odd numbers tend to be more "natural" than even, but if the forest has over 10 trees, this rule of thumb doesn't really matter. Be sure to leave some open, "negative space" in the planting--don't fill up the pot with trees. That negative space is as important as the trees. It helps the planting "breathe" visually adding a sense of openness. Stuffing the pot with trees ruins that feeling.
Step back, grow out, develop branching....That's what I did with mine.
The fun thing about forests is the endless variation that's possible. The above should help get things started. Where you end up is up to you.
ShimpakuBonsai
Chumono
Recent video of BonsaiQ about a forest planting with 5 Larch trees.
There are two general types of forests. The first is a near view composition...in this style forest the largest trees are more toward the front of composition and the smaller trees are more toward the back creating a forced perspective of distance. This is a composition that invites you to walk into it. Many of Mr. Kato's forest are the second type of forest...distant view. In a distant view forest individual trees are less important and what the viewer sees is more of a silhouette of the forest...the forced perspective and individual tress are far less important. Distant view forests are better when your material lacks variation in size.
Generally speaking, spacing is where most group plantings fail in my estimation. When building a forest of either style always start by placing your largest trees first. Then add trees in decreasing size. I like to add clusters (groups of 2 and 3 trees) of trees whenever possible...this helps to overcome the natural human tendency to evenly space everything.
Another concept that is lost on many people is the relationship between the heights of the trees and diameters of the trunks... In the best forests group there a common ratio between the heights of the trees and the trunk diameter. Tallest tree = widest diameter trunk Smallest tree = smallest diameter trunk. Seems common sense but is often overlooked.
Ryan Neil has an excellent video that covers some of the most fundamental concepts of building forests. It was posted on Youtube and publicly available in the past. I looked for it this weekend to show a student I couldn't locate it??? You might look at the Forests of Mirai video...it offers some excellent examples of group plantings.
Last Caveat... I was originally taught to make trees from young material and bad material that would never make a single trunk bonsai...now I believe this only leads to subpar group plantings!! In my experience, it is always better to develop young trees for a couple years before putting them together in a group planting. Start with more than you need. Make sure you have small, medium, and larger trees...scaled by height and trunk diameter. Also create some small clusters of 2-5 trees with their trunks virtually touching. Grow and prune these until you feel they are ready to put together to create an almost finished looking forest!
Generally speaking, spacing is where most group plantings fail in my estimation. When building a forest of either style always start by placing your largest trees first. Then add trees in decreasing size. I like to add clusters (groups of 2 and 3 trees) of trees whenever possible...this helps to overcome the natural human tendency to evenly space everything.
Another concept that is lost on many people is the relationship between the heights of the trees and diameters of the trunks... In the best forests group there a common ratio between the heights of the trees and the trunk diameter. Tallest tree = widest diameter trunk Smallest tree = smallest diameter trunk. Seems common sense but is often overlooked.
Ryan Neil has an excellent video that covers some of the most fundamental concepts of building forests. It was posted on Youtube and publicly available in the past. I looked for it this weekend to show a student I couldn't locate it??? You might look at the Forests of Mirai video...it offers some excellent examples of group plantings.
Last Caveat... I was originally taught to make trees from young material and bad material that would never make a single trunk bonsai...now I believe this only leads to subpar group plantings!! In my experience, it is always better to develop young trees for a couple years before putting them together in a group planting. Start with more than you need. Make sure you have small, medium, and larger trees...scaled by height and trunk diameter. Also create some small clusters of 2-5 trees with their trunks virtually touching. Grow and prune these until you feel they are ready to put together to create an almost finished looking forest!
FiestaRed
Yamadori
What a great book, thanks for sharing. It might be a fruitless search but I'll give it a go at finding a copy.
FiestaRed
Yamadori
That's a really good idea. I have bought too many so I can do that. Thank you for the tip.
FiestaRed
Yamadori
A big thank you to everyone for all their help and advice. It is really appreciated.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
My advice is based on what most beginners are starting with--young seedlings. Most people asking about how to start forests are beginners who don't have larger trees to work with, from what I've seen online. That means little variation in size/diameter or nebari on the trees being used.
John G. gives excellent advice on more advanced trees.
John G. gives excellent advice on more advanced trees.
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
@johng is the man. Glad he’s back!
Sometimes one has to just pull the trigger of a first time project, knowing you’ll have to go back and rearrange in a couple years.
Figure five years as a target time to get the forest to look good as a beginner age group wise .
For example
I’ve got two projects starting this week.
One with JM one with Japanese flowering Crabapples
For the first project I got 10 JM seedlings and 6 3 yoa JM from Matt O. 3 of the 3 yoa are going in separate pots for a couple years while the rest, singly or clumped will be potted up together on a forest tray.
For the Japanese flowering Crabs… I bought some from Matt O over the past 3 years. These were planted in singles or clumps. The singles grew fast and the clumps lagged. This year all three year groups will be put together. Also to fill in I’ll stick the winter cuttings in the next years to bulk out the forest. (Crabs take well) Then add more from Matt O if needed at the five year mark.
Cheers
DSD sends
Sometimes one has to just pull the trigger of a first time project, knowing you’ll have to go back and rearrange in a couple years.
Figure five years as a target time to get the forest to look good as a beginner age group wise .
For example
I’ve got two projects starting this week.
One with JM one with Japanese flowering Crabapples
For the first project I got 10 JM seedlings and 6 3 yoa JM from Matt O. 3 of the 3 yoa are going in separate pots for a couple years while the rest, singly or clumped will be potted up together on a forest tray.
For the Japanese flowering Crabs… I bought some from Matt O over the past 3 years. These were planted in singles or clumps. The singles grew fast and the clumps lagged. This year all three year groups will be put together. Also to fill in I’ll stick the winter cuttings in the next years to bulk out the forest. (Crabs take well) Then add more from Matt O if needed at the five year mark.
Cheers
DSD sends
Johnnyd
Shohin
I'll 2nd Rockm with Saburo being the go to guide for forest plantings. My club has it and I made sure to capture a few photos of layouts that I found appealing.
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