Japanese White pine #2

JudyB said:
I have always wondered why yamadori gets a pass for each and every flaw that they have, and yet grown trees must conform. Just an observation...
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This wasn't always the case. Many great yamadori were destroyed in the past because people tried to apply what they thought were the "rules" of bonsai to them. This meant fitting them into a certain style, or cutting off things like bar branches or branches in a curve.

Generally, a flaw is only a flaw until it gets age, then it becomes beautiful.
 
JudyB said:
I have always wondered why yamadori gets a pass for each and every flaw that they have, and yet grown trees must conform. Just an observation...

@dirk hoorelbeke I am always looking to better my trees, and conifers are not really my strong suit, so I'm actually pretty happy to receive critique and suggestions. We will see what happens at the repot!
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That's the reason to join a forum for me. Not to have thumbs up from everybody, but to hear what might be better. When I look at my trees every day, i tend to go blind for other options. It's good to have different opinions in the back of your head so you can ignore them when you don't like it. The reason why yamadori can get away with more is that most of the time they have a feature that catches the eye and compensates for it's bad habits. Naughty yamadori ...
 
Judy I really like your tree. I have a baby version of the tree that I purchased from NEB. Would it be smart or stupid to try and Air layer the tree. The baby version I purchased a year ago is still in the grow pot and I don't want it to die but I think it would be cool to have the black pine roots gone. From all of the post I have read ecspecially Adair M it's better to have a white pine on its own stock.
 
"I have always wondered why yamadori gets a pass for each and every flaw that they have, and yet grown trees must conform. Just an observation..."

How often is it that a criticism of a tree speaks more of the person doing the critique than it does of the material itself.
 
Lewiscarnes said:
Judy I really like your tree. I have a baby version of the tree that I purchased from NEB. Would it be smart or stupid to try and Air layer the tree. The baby version I purchased a year ago is still in the grow pot and I don't want it to die but I think it would be cool to have the black pine roots gone. From all of the post I have read ecspecially Adair M it's better to have a white pine on its own stock.
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I would not suggest air layering your tree. I don't know that JWP are easy to airlayer in any event. If you want a WP on own stock you should look up Julian Adams, and purchase one if his Zuisho JWP plants.
 
Lewiscarnes said:
Judy I really like your tree. I have a baby version of the tree that I purchased from NEB. Would it be smart or stupid to try and Air layer the tree. The baby version I purchased a year ago is still in the grow pot and I don't want it to die but I think it would be cool to have the black pine roots gone. From all of the post I have read ecspecially Adair M it's better to have a white pine on its own stock.
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Judy is correct. Typical JWP are difficult to air layer.

There are two varieties of JWP that airlayer well: Kokonoe and Zuisho. Both of these are dwarf varieties and tend to have shorter needles than the one Judy has.

The primary source for Zuisho is Julian Adams. Www.adamsbonsai.com. He propagates them by airlayer. And maybe a few cuttings. I don't know of anyone doing the same thing with Kokonoe.

Both Kokonoe and Zuisho are relatively rare in the US.

The type Judy has, and likely yours, too, is very weak on its own roots. It's grafted onto JBP to increase vigor, and develop a trunk faster. The key with these is to get one where the graft can hidden.

Eventually, maybe after 25 or 30 years, the juvenile bark of the JWP will mature to be flakey, then become plated after another decade. Or so.
 
Thank you for the help. Julian gave me a date to email him to reserve a Zuisho. I am positive a Zuisho will grow in Alabama but I am not familiar kokonoe. Do you have a kokonoe? The white pine import you have that you posted a couple of months back is amazing. Thank you again for the help and saving me 250.
 
Lewiscarnes said:
Thank you for the help. Julian gave me a date to email him to reserve a Zuisho. I am positive a Zuisho will grow in Alabama but I am not familiar kokonoe. Do you have a kokonoe? The white pine import you have that you posted a couple of months back is amazing. Thank you again for the help and saving me 250.
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I don't have a Kokonoe. I do have several Zuisho, a couple of the same cultivar as Judy's (one grafted on JBP and one grafted on Lodgepole) and and extremely rare dwarf call Mijami.

Kokonoe and Zuisho are very similiar. In fact, Boon and I thought this trees was a Kokonoe when I bought it from Boon. Later, when Diasaku Nomoto styled it, he said it was Zuisho. It has pointed buds. Kokonoe is rounded.

IMG_3227.JPG

The needles on Zuisho may be a little shorter.

Both make excellent bonsai.

Initially, both cultivars were primarily propogated by grafting. After 60 to 75 years, however, many of the trees' graft unions failed. The growth rate of the JBP understock and the JWP scions are different, and they grew apart. So, the technique of layering the JWP off so that the trees would be on their own roots was developed. So, a method to get good trunks "quickly" is to start with a graft on JBP for 40 years or so, then layer.

Or, begin with layering branches from an existing tree. This is the method Julian uses. This method takes longer to develop because the trees are not as vigorous on their own roots, but you don't have to worry about their grafts failing.
 
Beautiful tree. Do the zuisho with JBP grow twice as fast? I understand they grow faster but are they easier to keep healthy as well when they have JBP roots. It would suck pretty bad to grow something for 75 years and then the grafts come apart. When the grafts come apart is it to late or is that when people try to air layer it off? Do you have a picture of a tree that has had this happen to it.
 
Lewiscarnes said:
Beautiful tree. Do the zuisho with JBP grow twice as fast? I understand they grow faster but are they easier to keep healthy as well when they have JBP roots. It would suck pretty bad to grow something for 75 years and then the grafts come apart. When the grafts come apart is it to late or is that when people try to air layer it off? Do you have a picture of a tree that has had this happen to it.
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I do not have a picture. I believe Owen Reich was working on one in Japan, and it just came apart.

I have heard similiar stories from Boon and Juan Andrade.

Once you find out it's bad, it's too late.

I believe Brian Van Fleet had a JWP grafted on JBP do this. I don't think it was Zuisho or Kokonoe. He did try to determine what happened. It didn't come apart, it just died.

I don't know how much faster they grow on JBP roots than on their own roots.

A good friend of mine says the problem is worse when the trees are heavily fed, trying to maximize the growth. He says that growing slower tends to keep the growth rate of the stock and scion better balanced.
 
Lewiscarnes said:
It's going to be my luck, in 50 years the tree is going to die. thanks for the help.
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If you're talking about the little zuisho you worked on at my house last spring, you don't want to layer it. The graft is fairly high, and well-obscured with trunk movement. Ryan Neil once mentioned that zuisho grafts fail during a demo and people have been running scared since; his experience could be any number of unexplained reasons. If the graft is low, it might make sense to allow itself to ground-layer on its own, but I wouldn't initiate it just for fear of a failing graft.
 
That makes me feel better. I haven't read near what you have read but is it widely accepted that jwp on jbp fail on a regular basis after 50 years? I can look at a really bad ass pine at a show or in a picture and I have to really look close and sometimes I can tell it's grafted and sometimes I am just not sure. If you picked up a book that had nothing but jwp in it, would most of them be grafted or most of them Not be grafted. Or do most people after a long time grow the white pine off or the graft naturally gets lower and lower until it's easily done. Sorry for the questions, I don't have a clue and extremely curious. Or is this something that people use to blame on killing a tree after they paid stupid money for it and over water it.
 
In Japan, many of the JWP are collected trees, so they're on their own roots.

There's also a huge commercial industry of making grafted JWP on JBP stock. These are usually grafted kinda high, the JBP stock is wired and twisted. The wire is never removed. The fast growing JBP trunk fattens up rapidly, and the wire makes it look rugged at a young age. They produce these by the thousands. And grow them in the ground for a decade. Then they're dug and potted. And the culling begins...

The best ones are chosen quickly and trained. Most have some undesirable features that prevent them from being really good, but they get sold as "mallsai".

The ones the Japanese won't buy get exported. Those are the ones we get to pick from.

Many are lost in the importing and quarantining process. That's why they cost so much.

The 60 year life span is based upon stories of Zuisho that had originally been grafted. Will every one meet such a fate? I don't know. The Zuisho cultivar hasn't been around much longer than 60 years. So, we'll just have to see.
 
JudyB said:
Some of what you see is not apparent in person, but we will see what a new angle can do for the issues that everyone is seeing with this tree. Thanks!
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Hi Judy, have you wired the tree this past fall? it looks ripe for a detail wiring in the last photo you have posted.
I really like the trunk line, it has some power but also a kind of whimsical movement, very powerful but wise and light of heart

you really have brought this tree very far from aqcuiring it. Some trees already look good when bought but the work put in is equal to any other tree, maybe just not as drastic

Best regards
Herman
 
This tree was just wired fully before the current photos... Will look for a new front or new angle this spring. Thanks!
 
Judy,

Your pine is fantastic and I can see where you're going with it. That bark and trunk are beautiful!
 
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