Japanese black pine, 3yo nursery stock

[Mikea454]

location: New England
ordered a couple 3yo JBP nursery stock to play with while I wait for seeds to grow. I don't see any obvious node from prior years, buds, and clearly no branches. they are 14-18 inch tall and 3/16 to ¼ inch thick. They don't seem to be flexible. is there any way to make them into Bonsai? I can try to wire and force some movement into one of them. Appreciate any suggestions!

 

[brentwood]

Those should be very flexible -any one you can work with you try this? If not, Google bending young pine trunks, get a feel for what others have done - second best to having someone help

Good luck!
B

 

[Shibui]

I can't see any obvious nodes either. I guess JBP could grow this tall in just the first year with super conditions or maybe semi tropical climate but I'm surprised they are claiming 3 year old.
How experienced are you? Pines in general are super bendable so I am very surprised that you feel these are not flexible. At 1/4 inch thick you should be able to tie them in knots.

Some things you could try:

• Grow larger bonsai so a higher first branch is no problem.
• Bend(?) to compact the trunks and bring first branches down closer to ground level.
• Prune hard (only far enough to still leave 3-6 pairs of healthy needles) now to try for back buds along the trunk. There's plenty of evidence of previous needles so there's a good chance of getting some buds down on the bare sections. The worst that can happen is you'll only get new buds where the needles are.

 

[Mikea454]

Thank you for the responses. just to be clear they bend a little, just didn't seem like they would bend enough to bring the lowest possible branch location to a reasonable height since they are 7 or 8 inches from the soil. I have some larger wire arriving Monday, ill try to bend one and post pics. sounds like I might be underestimating what amount they can take before breaking.

 

[BrightsideB]

Are you sure these trunks aren’t closer to 1/2” thick? I grow some black pines simply as test subjects to better understand them. I think it’s still possible you can take these in any direction but a literati style would be the quickest to me.

 

[Mikea454]

The skinny tall one was 3/16" I measured with my woodworking calipers. The thickest is 1/4", the other is in between. They bend some, don't get me wrong, just not enough to get that first node as low as I want it. With above advice I wired the the thinnest with my thickest wire and bent it down. It cracked a little but is holding. I need thicker wire to even consider the other two, which arrives Monday. I think I'll clip the candle this Fall and hope for back budding or branching of some sort.

 

[Paradox]

If they suddenly turn brown and die, it's because the bark slipped due to wiring and bending at the wrong time of year.

When the sap is running in spring and summer, bending can cause the bark and cambium to separate and slip. The usually kills the branch or trunk it was done to.

This is why we wire in fall and early winter

 

[BrightsideB]

I would lean to making these into the style of a future literati. Try using some rafia or an alternative to keep the trunk from cracking or bark from slipping and wire during the time @Paradox mentioned. In the meantime keep them healthy.

 

[Mikea454]

@Paradox appreciate the tip, I did not fully understand that. That's exactly what happened about a half inch of length where I wired did slip we'll see if it survives. I was worried if it thickened up anymore. I wouldn't be able to bend it. I tried to follow the videos from Eric Schrader (Bonsify), as I saw suggested - he corkscrews them low. Can cambium reattach in small areas with some temporary compression?

@BrightsideB As soon as I read the comment from Paradox, and realized that's what I felt happening I thought raffia might help too.

 

[Paradox]

@Paradox appreciate the tip, I did not fully understand that. That's exactly what happened about a half inch of length where I wired did slip we'll see if it survives. I was worried if it thickened up anymore. I wouldn't be able to bend it. I tried to follow the videos from Eric Schrader (Bonsify), as I saw suggested - he corkscrews them low. Can cambium reattach in small areas with some temporary compression?

@BrightsideB As soon as I read the comment from Paradox, and realized that's what I felt happening I thought raffia might help too.

Not sure if it can reattach honestly. Healing/survival probably depends on the extent of the damage.
Next time wait until fall when it's the correct time. Those trunks won't thicken up so much in one season to make them unbendable.

 

[Mikea454]

Not sure if it can reattach honestly. Healing/survival probably depends on the extent of the damage.
Next time wait until fall when it's the correct time. Those trunks won't thicken up so much in one season to make them unbendable.

I will with the other two, unfortunately I didn't know that was an issue and only found the last thread you pointed that put to someone after the fact when I knew what I look for.

 

[Paradox]

I will with the other two, unfortunately I didn't know that was an issue and only found the last thread you pointed that put to someone after the fact when I knew what I look for.

Well, now you know and you learned something today. I call any day I learn something a good day. Common new person mistake. Happens.

 

[Lorax7]

I’m confident that you can bend those more than you think you can (but, as already noted, do it in the right season). For an example of what’s possible, here’s a link to a progression thread that shows bending on a pine of similar size and age. It’s a JWP, not a JBP, but there’s not that much difference in flexibility between the two species. Here’s another thread that shows bending a JWP with a trunk that was about an inch in diameter at the time. If you’re having trouble bending it as much as you desire, note that you may be able to achieve a greater bend by bending it the extent you can initially, giving it a few days for the wood fibers to relax, and then returning to bend it further.

 

[Mikea454]

I’m confident that you can bend those more than you think you can (but, as already noted, do it in the right season). For an example of what’s possible, here’s a link to a progression thread that shows bending on a pine of similar size and age. It’s a JWP, not a JBP, but there’s not that much difference in flexibility between the two species. Here’s another thread that shows bending a JWP with a trunk that was about an inch in diameter at the time. If you’re having trouble bending it as much as you desire, note that you may be able to achieve a greater bend by bending it the extent you can initially, giving it a few days for the wood fibers to relax, and then returning to bend it further.

that's some impressive bending, but my concern wasn't it was too thick to bend but to thick for how much it needs to be bent to get a branch as low as I like. The lowest node I can see is 8 to 11" from soil.. Schrader gets almost as tall ones down, but his seem more flexible - 8 or 9 min in he bends the sh*t out of this little pine. snap shots don't do it justice, here is the link

 

[SeanS]

You can use pliers to help bend them. Grab the wire near the base of the sapling and then really go to town with your other hand to bend them. You can even a 2nd pair of pliers, use one to grab the wire low down and the other to grab the wire further up and to bend the trunk.

 

[Shibui]

All trees will bend more with less chance of cracking if you let them dry out a bit before bending. seems to allow the cells to move more inside the trunk.
All trees will bend more without cracking if you make the bends over time. Bend as far as you are comfortable the first day, set the tree aside to rest for 1 -2 days then bend again. After resting you can get way more bend well past where it would have snapped if done in one go.
You can get way more bend if you twist the trunk as you bend it. Bending in one direction only stretches fibres on the outside of the bend and compresses fibres and cells on the inside of the bend to the point they snap. Twisting as you bend moves stretched outside fibres to the inside of the bend further up and relieves that tension and compression to allow more bend.

Wrapping the trunk/branch helps hold the fibres in place while you bend. It can allow bending much thicker material way further than the same unwrapped. Raffia is traditional but many modern materials are suitable and often better. Don't leave wrappings too long as the trunk expands above and below the wrap creating taper issues.

 

[Bonsai Forest]

If you apply wire clockwise (in rotation), twist the trunk or branch in the same direction as the wire while bending the tree. This technique prevents the wire from loosening its tight grip around the trunk or branch, and creates movement and bending while avoiding tearing/shearing/severing fibers to the extent that they result in open breaks or wounds.

Wet raffia (thoroughly soaked), tight wiring (doubled, if necessary), and evenly distributing weight and pressure of bending by twisting in the same direction as the wire rotation will ensure safe bending with less likelihood of an open break or snap at one bend or angle in the trunk/branch.

 

[Mikea454]

All trees will bend more with less chance of cracking if you let them dry out a bit before bending. seems to allow the cells to move more inside the trunk.
All trees will bend more without cracking if you make the bends over time. Bend as far as you are comfortable the first day, set the tree aside to rest for 1 -2 days then bend again. After resting you can get way more bend well past where it would have snapped if done in one go.
You can get way more bend if you twist the trunk as you bend it. Bending in one direction only stretches fibres on the outside of the bend and compresses fibres and cells on the inside of the bend to the point they snap. Twisting as you bend moves stretched outside fibres to the inside of the bend further up and relieves that tension and compression to allow more bend.

Wrapping the trunk/branch helps hold the fibres in place while you bend. It can allow bending much thicker material way further than the same unwrapped. Raffia is traditional but many modern materials are suitable and often better. Don't leave wrappings too long as the trunk expands above and below the wrap creating taper issues.

thanks everyone for the tips

@Shibui that explanation really helps, whats your favorite modern alternative to raffia?

 

[Shibui]

Bicycle inner tube is one of the best. Cut wide enough wide enough to leave less marks as the tree grows, stretches enough to give good pressure on the trunk and tough enough to last as long as required. Should be easy enough to obtain for free from a bike repair store or any nearby lycra wearing enthusiast. Downside is the time and effort required to cut strips from the tube.

PVC electrical tape works.

Duct tape is strong, stretchy and durable. It can be used for everything else so why not bonsai too? The adhesive may take a while to disappear after you remove it from the tree but very few trees will be in show condition for years after such bending so not a big problem IMHO. Narrower rolls are better when you need to wrap past branches and shoots.

Vet wrap is self adhesive but not as strong as the others mentioned so more layers required to do a good job. I've only used it because I was given some by a horse owner.

I used bale twine as a modern alternative a few times. It works well to protect the tree from cracks but doesn't expand so will leave marks on the trunk. Also requires lots of wraps as it's only a narrow band.

There's probably many more.

 

[Mikea454]

Bicycle inner tube is one of the best. Cut wide enough wide enough to leave less marks as the tree grows, stretches enough to give good pressure on the trunk and tough enough to last as long as required. Should be easy enough to obtain for free from a bike repair store or any nearby lycra wearing enthusiast. Downside is the time and effort required to cut strips from the tube.

PVC electrical tape works.

Duct tape is strong, stretchy and durable. It can be used for everything else so why not bonsai too? The adhesive may take a while to disappear after you remove it from the tree but very few trees will be in show condition for years after such bending so not a big problem IMHO. Narrower rolls are better when you need to wrap past branches and shoots.

Vet wrap is self adhesive but not as strong as the others mentioned so more layers required to do a good job. I've only used it because I was given some by a horse owner.

I used bale twine as a modern alternative a few times. It works well to protect the tree from cracks but doesn't expand so will leave marks on the trunk. Also requires lots of wraps as it's only a narrow band.

There's probably many more.

you are a wealth of info, I appreciate all the work you do on this forum to help us newbies

(funny enough I'm a vet, I have lots of vet wrap and with all my DIY home reno lots of duct and electrical tape)