How do you tackle tangled surface roots on a nursery bought pine?

[QuintinBonsai]

You know that tangled mess of roots that's usually on pot bound pines? I'd like to trim them, but I don't know if it would cause any adverse reactions. Another issue is, these tangled roots connect to the nebari. What can be done to correct this if anything?

 

[Vance Wood]

You know that tangled mess of roots that's usually on pot bound pines? I'd like to trim them, but I don't know if it would cause any adverse reactions. Another issue is, these tangled roots connect to the nebari. What can be done to correct this if anything?

Some times they can be straightened, sometime they can be lived with and sometimes you have to remove them. I usually find the best way to deal with them is to make three cuts around the perimeter of the soil ball with a very sharp saw that cuts into the old soil mass from the outside to the inside of the soil ball, up to the trunk and not into the trunk or through it.

This will make three cuts that divide the soil mass into thirds (more or less) and cut through all of the roots that have been encircling the tree for God knows how many years. Sure you are probably going to make life difficult for some of these roots but you have no alternative.

Digging into the soil mass with a stick or a root rake will stress out the root system so much that even if you are able to straighten the roots out you wind up killing the tree doing it. As long as the cuts you make are between any large visible roots, you can see on the surface, and you don't cut them off at the source they will regenerate at the cuts. You will also have some roots dying in the areas where they have been isolate from the tree. They will be easy enough to deal with the next time you repot the tree.

Growing bonsai from nursery trees is not simple. In Yamidori trees you have to develop and grow a root system that is compatible to bonsai culture. With nursery trees you almost invariably have to replace, rebuild and replenish a root system from what the nursery trade has delivered you. One of the chief reasons nursery trees for bonsai is frowned upon: It's just too much bleeding work.

I would deem it axiomatic that the better the quality of the nursey tree the more horrible will be the root system.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

I hope more that have had success in dealing with this topic will post here.

 

[Vance Wood]

I hope more that have had success in dealing with this topic will post here.

Yah me too, I'v learned I don't know what I'm talking about, I can always use new points of view.

 

[QuintinBonsai]

Thanks Vance. Man, you really know your stuff.

It's a 1 gallon pine. What would you say if this tree were planted into a larger tub, or a large colander to obtain some girth? Would this correct the spiraling roots?

 

[sikadelic]

Vance, just so I understand what you're saying, are you looking at the root ball from the bottom and cutting like a Mercedes logo? Poor analogy but its the best I could come up with. Thanks.

 

[GrimLore]

If I did any of that here to a pine it would proceed to die. Don't know why but they barely tolerate a repot here and don't get one until on the 5th year. If I had that problem I would have to really think out a potting solution forcing the roots to go horizontal over a few seasons.

Grimmy

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks Vance. Man, you really know your stuff.

It's a 1 gallon pine. What would you say if this tree were planted into a larger tub, or a large colander to obtain some girth? Would this correct the spiraling roots?

No they would continue to grow the way they are growing unfortunately. Cutting the soil mass in thirds like described is the only way you can start the tree growing outward. I prefer the pond basket it will prevent the tree from forming additional circling roots, and produce fine roots.

Contrary to what is suggested by some sources, the pond basket will help the tree develop more girth, probably not as much as in the ground, but the bark it will produce will be far better than in the ground.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, just so I understand what you're saying, are you looking at the root ball from the bottom and cutting like a Mercedes logo? Poor analogy but its the best I could come up with. Thanks.

Yup! We are talking about really root bound trees.

 

[Vance Wood]

If I did any of that here to a pine it would proceed to die. Don't know why but they barely tolerate a repot here and don't get one until on the 5th year. If I had that problem I would have to really think out a potting solution forcing the roots to go horizontal over a few seasons.

Grimmy

When do you do your pines? I don't think there is anything in PA that makes doing Pines impossible.

 

[Vance Wood]

You know that tangled mess of roots that's usually on pot bound pines? I'd like to trim them, but I don't know if it would cause any adverse reactions. Another issue is, these tangled roots connect to the nebari. What can be done to correct this if anything?

What kind of pines are we talking about?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

If it's a JBP, I work them over pretty hard.

This one was in a 15-gal can for 4-5 years in Brussels soil, so it was pretty muddy. I sawed off the bottom 1/3, combed out the bottom and sides as much as I felt I could get away with, then combed out the exposed roots as radially as I could. You'll see the left side was nearly bare-rooted, and the right side has quite a bit of soil remaining. It also has quite a bit of soil underneath, forcing me to plant it higher in the pot than the final height will be.

Next year, I can repot again, going easy in the left side, and bare-rooting the right side and bottom, and get it deeper in the pot. Any roots that are crossing and look bad can be moved and separated with some bamboo skewers and a little wire.

I also have good luck with trimming any of those smaller roots that pop up above the soil level, pretty much any time of year.

 

[QuintinBonsai]

What kind of pines are we talking about?

Japanese Black.

 

[Poink88]

Very nice JBP Brian. I love the gentle trunk movement of this one.

 

[fore]

I thought I've read where you can just cut 1/3 of the diam. off yr 1, another 1/3 yr 2, and finally cut it off yr 3.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Something that young should tolerate aggressive root work without any issue. I'd saw off the bottom third, Comb them out and arrange what's left radially. As you're combing them out, you'll be able to tell how much the exposed roots have underground, if it's not much, just snip them off. If it's a lot, just pin it down under the soil level and move on. A better base happens without much intervention on JPB, quite the opposite from many d-trees.

 

[Vance Wood]

Brian's tree is a good example of the best scenario. This is kind of what happens if you can find material this good at a bonsai nursery. It also helps if you have the talent Brian has. Sadly most nursery Pines do not have roots as good as this one, and most people that buy them don't have the experience Brian has.

Having come from Brussels Nursery accounts for a lot of it, they at least take care of their stock. It's still difficult but nowhere as much as as some of the stuff I run into that has not been taken care of by a bonsai nursery or even a proprietor that gives a manure deposit about the tree. I buy trees from places that think bonsai is pronounced banzai, and believe they all go in light blue glazed pots, if they know what a bonsai is at all.

Before it gets said; your money is well spent at good sources----in general, if you know what you are looking at. If you can afford hundreds of dollars for good quality pre-bonsai trees I recommend you spend it.

If you cannot then you have to look in other sources. I have said previously, I consider it axiomatic: The better the tree the worse the root system-----in general; any rule can have an exception. If the tree is a cultivated pre-bonsai I do not consider it the same as a nursery tree any more than I would consider a Juniper purchased from Kmura's establishment a nursery tree. I don't think this source is wrong but it cannot be compared to what most people consider a nursery tree. Generally a nursery tree has a piece of crap quality about it.

 

[Vance Wood]

Japanese Black.

After looking at this tree I see no reason why you cannot straighten out the roots. The tree is very young and the soil cannot be that root bound. Don't remove all the soil just comb through enough to straighten those coming off the trunk.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Yah me too, I'v learned I don't know what I'm talking about, I can always use new points of view.

Vance, I know you have a good deal of experience. However no one has all experience. There just may be someone else walking the earth that has dealt with this topic and they may just have one more way to approach the problem (see Brian's post). And perhaps combining their experience with your experience might just make for a better method.

No point in starting a issue where one doesn't exist.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, I know you have a good deal of experience. However no one has all experience. There just may be someone else walking the earth that has dealt with this topic and they may just have one more way to approach the problem (see Brian's post). And perhaps combining their experience with your experience might just make for a better method.

No point in starting a issue where one doesn't exist.

I didn't realize I was starting an issue any more than your intentions was to suggest otherwise. I just thought I was making a wise crack sorry you took it wrong. I aftirmed what you were saying didn't I? I have learned that I don't know what I am talking about.