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Why do you think I still come here! Lol!
For the advanced seasoned bonsaist...
- Thread starter Cadillactaste
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Vance, you made me laugh!!! Mama said you will loose your hair and teeth in no time. Probably a typo, I think?
Alain means well to pronounce penjing correcting. Most people in the west pronounce the first syllable as "pen", but the Chinese pronunciation sounds like "purn" as in "burn" with long draw ... purr..urn.
AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
CamdenJim
Shohin
Thanks for posting these photos, Brian.
Thanks, Alain.
Boscology
Mame
I think this is a good time to reflect on feelings of an idividual regarding their creation/bonsai/art. I think it takes a certain amount of bravery or from the individual's standpoint risk to show their work, in a demo or online forum or club meeting. I believe you should always try to be encouraging even when critiqueing, it shows the person that they can get good feedback from you and will encourage them to share more.
In the case of this person Kathy I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe this was her intention but she unfortunately came across in a way that was not parralel to her effort. I think for the most part the members of this forum do a great job of being encouraging to new people and it really makes me happy. This is a good lesson on perspective and how we should be considerate of others.
In the case of this person Kathy I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that maybe this was her intention but she unfortunately came across in a way that was not parralel to her effort. I think for the most part the members of this forum do a great job of being encouraging to new people and it really makes me happy. This is a good lesson on perspective and how we should be considerate of others.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
"This person Kathy" was certified as a bonsai master in 1983 by the Nippon Bonsai Association after a 5-year apprenticeship in Japan under Mr. Mitsuya. She worked with him for 30 years until recently. One of the first Americans, and the first woman to be certified as a master. Yeah, benefit of the doubt is probably good.
http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/3136201/24790740/1398574020243/April14Clippings.pdf?token=HL3EBrY4oxwVDhHp2TMxvSv+wi8=
Stacey and I ignore each other, but I suspect his tree would have won if he had killed the cascading branch. I think it was otherwise the best-styled tree of the bunch...but I'm no master!
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coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Maybe...that cascading branch doesn't seem to go well with the rest of the tree. I understand this is a 1-day competition tree, and it could look good down the road...but as posted, it looked very "confused" and incongruent. The tree that did win deserved the award based on the pictures I've seen.
I'm disappointed at the rush to negative judgement and character assassination that occurred here. Kathy Shaner is a very well respected bonsai artist and an excellent teacher. I've been very fortunate to have seen her talk/demo several times, and have sat in on a workshop she did on Chinese quince. She has a wealth of technical knowledge and is very good at conveying that knowledge. Brian, maybe you can speak to this since you've worked with her quite a bit - I seem to recall her saying that she didn't have a personal collection (or much of one) because of her extensive traveling and teaching schedule. That's probably why you don't see a lot of "her" trees out there.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
This is true, and has been the case for quite a while; "her" trees are in collections for which she is the curator and relies heavily on volunteers to support. She has a home in AL and one in CA and spends a lot of time traveling. She does workshops in her home here each March, and it's always fallen on a weekend I can't get there, so I have not been to her home. Maybe I can get there for a day next month. I have been fortunate enough to work with her each year mostly since 2009, but only for half day or full day workshops, or spending some time at shows.
She does not "do" much instant bonsai in workshops, so you're not likely to leave one with a "finished" looking tree as you may with Bjorn or Ryan; hence fewer of those "after workshop" photos. People know this about her workshops too, and bring material accordingly. The best of both worlds is to work with Kathy on a tree for a few years, and take it to a Bjorn workshop for the finishing touches. Here is a modest example:
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/shimpaku-project.4389/
Kathy trees are multiple-year projects, as bonsai should be. Good trees are developed over time; years, until they reach a pinnacle where they are show-ready. The tree is exhibited for a year, two, or three, then it is taken out of the public eye while the owner or stylist further enhances the tree and prepares it for the next round of showing. This cycle is normally 5-7 years long. It's not something we often think about at our level, but the pros all talk about this. Our trees would be better if we started approaching them like this too: a few in the collection are ready to display at a moment's notice, a few are approaching show-ready, some are just starting out, and a few are somewhere in the middle. You can drive yourself crazy if all of your trees are in any one area of this cycle. Consider that: what hobbyist has time to keep 20 trees show-ready? How motivating is it having only trees that need a ton of work before you want anyone to see them?
Back to Kathy workshops. What's different, is we do things to the tree now, which set up the tree for the next season: add a Jin here, bend a branch there, inflict a wound that, through the process of healing, adds character to the tree. Then let it grow all year (to a point), then next year we'll do x,y,z. Another exciting facet is that she sometimes gets inspired by something unexpected, and will pull everyone over for a sidebar discussion. A root cutting, major bend, a graft, maybe a new tool or technique. But I'm biased. I think she's wonderful.
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michaelj
Chumono
Here's a YouTube link to one of Kathy's appearances at Long Island Bonsai Society.
Bonus: she talks a bit about judging around the 12 minute mark....
Bonus: she talks a bit about judging around the 12 minute mark....
A Random User
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Sorry, somehow I missed this and didn't know we were still continuing the discussion.
There for some reason seems to be a lot of confusion regarding the lower branch of my tree. I have heard this not only from Kathy ,but as well here.
If I may be quite honest, I really for the life of me don't get where the confusion lies... I haven't quite figured out if for some they have a problem with it due to the fact that Kathy said she didn't like it, and folks have heard this and are just repeating what she said just because, or if their really is an issue with the actual design that confuses them... and if so, what is it that is confusing? Putting aside for a moment, that one perhaps might of liked the tree that won better, which fine... everyone has their own views and likes, I would love to know and look into this more... Why? because as previously mentioned, I just don't understand it. I not saying this because it is my tree, I am saying it because in all logical sense, which is why I said I feel Kathy didn't know what she was talking about, for me it just baffles my mind.
Why do I say it doesn't make any sense? Because When I look at just about every other image of a cascading tree on the internet, I see a tree that for the most part resembles the tree that I had design. Yes, perhaps some of them are better... to be honest most are... but this has more to do with the material, and for the most part was out of my hands, seeing I didn't buy, or select the material... you are just given what you are given. Also, as you have mentioned the trees also look better in the photos because they have had years of development, where mine just had the first initial design from a piece of nursery material that wasn't even what anyone would actually consider Bonsai stock. Now, with this said, my question for everyone is seeing that there seems to be all this confusion, and I have folks telling me that if I had removed the lower branch I probably might have won. Where does the confusion lie? I mean as I have said, If there are numerous other folks in the world that have styled their trees in a similar fashion, why is what I have done incorrect? And is this incorrect feeling based on perhaps a lack of understanding of what or how one can style a cascade? Or lastly, does the confusion here at the Nut stem more from a wiliness to not actually like the work because I have done it? Sorry... have to ask.
So, here are some example I have pulled from the web, feel free to do a search for yourself... and let me know. Not saying this trying to insult, But honestly, I really don't get it, and would love to understand what it is that I am missing. Thanks
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A Random User
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Some more...
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And my tree again...
Now, when I look at the examples given, I see similarities in just about all of them to my tree. I mean yes, they don't copy each one of them word for word... but they for me are all close enough where I can make the jump from each one of them to my tree and say... Yes... what I have done and the way I have styled the tree seems to be within a common understanding of how one can style a cascading tree. I mean, I am not just making all this stuff up. I didn't just style the tree in a fashion from beyond our galaxy... I did so, from my recollection of years of looking at images of trees, and working for years in bonsai leading up to the event. And where these images were to be found, one if they honestly look can find about a million more. Could there of been improvements, or could I have done a better job, of course there are and of course one can always do better...
So, returning to my question... where does the confusion lie? And sorry... for me, whether one likes my tree or not, or whether Kathy liked my tree or not, for me is not the issue, and was never the issue... I am a grown boy and can handle perfectly well a judge saying they didn't like my tree, or they preferred someone else s tree better... Cool. But, what I dont care for is when someone tells me something when they didnt have to say anything at all and what they tell me, flies in the face of all logical sense, or when I post a tree up here at the Nut, and everyone tells me they are confused, yet if any one of the above examples of trees were posted, all one would hear is how great they were, even though they are all similar in regards to their approach to their style.
Boggles the Mind... I stand by my work. The work is good, and the foundations for a nice tree were set in place , which is the whole point of styling a tree, to establish and bring out the best in what the material had to offer. I did this...
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leatherback
The Treedeemer
Let me try to say something.. As I am not the most eperienced, just take it as an idea..
I think looking at your tree, that the lower cascading branch, would be shaded out by the upper cascading branch. Acturally, having 2 cascading branches above eachother this way, feels dificult to me. To me, the tree does not come together as one tree; The lower branch is one large plateau, more inwards than the branch above it. Perhaps if you had reduced the top and upper cascading branch a little, to put everything in one line, and you had move the lower branch into two of more plateaus, it would have been more 'one'. Just a thought.
I think looking at your tree, that the lower cascading branch, would be shaded out by the upper cascading branch. Acturally, having 2 cascading branches above eachother this way, feels dificult to me. To me, the tree does not come together as one tree; The lower branch is one large plateau, more inwards than the branch above it. Perhaps if you had reduced the top and upper cascading branch a little, to put everything in one line, and you had move the lower branch into two of more plateaus, it would have been more 'one'. Just a thought.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
A thought I thought Via BVF Via Kathy? cuz that's how my yup nana went via BVF.
I agree. Via Kathy.
Sorce
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Say what?
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Lol!
BVF made a similar suggestion for this.
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-yup-nana.20341/
And it worked out. I like it.
Kathy teaches Brian, Brian teaches me!
Sorce
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Thanks for the reply. What the pictures are not able to demonstrate, seeing that they flatten out the tree... is that none of the padding goes over the top of another, so would be no worries about shading another out. Branching actually comes forward.
I like the virt you did, however all that has been done with it is tighten up the design... you have not changed any of the issues anyone seems to be finding confusing.
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