Collected Winged Elm

[markyscott]

I believe this is definitely a cedar elm. There are two telltale signs I see: one, the new growth has a hint of red which I've noticed on my cedar elms but not on my winged elms; and two, in the closeup of the leaves the serrations on the edges have a distinctly rounded shape versus the winged elm leaf which is straighter and sharper. This last feature can be very subtle, so you almost have to have the two leaves side by side for comparison.

Super nice tree!

Zach

Thanks Zach - those are good observations. Maybe one day it will flower and I'll know for sure - but I've never seen an elm flower in bonsai culture. Do yours?

 

[rockm]

Definitely a cedar elm. The leaves are elongated and ditto on the leaf serrations. Bark says "old cedar elm" to me also. Great tree!

 

[Adair M]

Don't let Adair know

I DO know! That's why I work with pines!

And only SHOHIN deciduous!

But, a highly ramified JBP requires a lot of tedious needle pulling, bud thinning and decandling at the appropriate time!

Really, "finished" trees (highly ramified) trees are a lot of work!

 

[markyscott]

I DO know! That's why I work with pines!

And only SHOHIN deciduous!

But, a highly ramified JBP requires a lot of tedious needle pulling, bud thinning and decandling at the appropriate time!

Really, "finished" trees (highly ramified) trees are a lot of work!

It's the truth - the end of all of this hard work is only a lot more hard work. Conifers have their own crosses to bear and, in reality, are only a little less manly than deciduous trees. You have to enjoy the journey. It's only work if you don't like what you're doing.

 

[rockm]

During the 2014 growing season, the tree grew like crazy. The person I purchased it from had thought it was a Cedar Elm (and it still may be), but when I saw the incredible wings that expanded on the new growth I suspected it was alata.

Here it is during the 2014 growing season.
View attachment 102695

As you can see there is nearly 3' of new growth on the leader. And look at the wings that formed -
View attachment 102696

Cedar elm and Winged elm are often confused. Here's what I understand - Cedar Elm (Ulmus crassifolia) is one of only two native elms that flower in the fall. The rest are spring flowering elms. So if your tree flowers in the fall it's for sure a Cedar Elm - they can also develop wings. The only other one that does is the September Elm (Ulmus serotina) and it's very rare and there are no wings. All of the other native elms flower in the spring. So Cedar Elm do not hybridize as other elms do as they flower out of season with other native.

Also, crassifolia is from the Latin crassus meaning "thick". The bottom of the leaves are supposedly rough when they harden off. But I've never found that to be especially diagnostic.

If it's truly a Winged Elm (Ulmus alata) it flowers in the spring. It should develop thick wings on vigorous new growth. Wings that develop on trees that I know are Cedar elm tend to appear kind of gray in color and aren't so large. The bark on this tree also look different than trees I know are Cedar elm. I've never seen this tree flower so I don't know for sure, but I suspect it's a Winged elm.

My old cedar elm get those wings on all of its strongly growing new shoots. It also has corky bark on the trunk. It IS a cedar elm though.

 

[markyscott]

My old cedar elm get those wings on all of its strongly growing new shoots. It also has corky bark on the trunk. It IS a cedar elm though.

Thanks Rockm. I have trees that I know are Cedar elm as well - I think I know anyway because I collected them in a grove of fall flowering elms. They get corky wings too - just not like on this tree and the bark and leaves look a bit different as well.

That said, there seems to be a fair amount of genetic diversity among native elms and this could definitely be a Cedar. I trust yours and Zach's instinct on this as there are few people around that have thought about or looked at more native elms than the two of you. I think part of the difficulty in uniquely identifying elm species might be hybridization. Although the only other fall-flowering elm that Cedar can hybridize with is parvifolia, it's planted everywhere here in SE Texas. So despite the fact that it's not native, there's very likely some hybridization going on. And Winged elm can hybridize with American, which is also native to our area, because they're both spring flowering elms. So there are many potential variants and crosses that can occur, I think, which can make identification a bit tough.

In the end, I don't think it matters all that much which one it is, although it's pretty fun to talk about. Their culture is identical, as far as I know - I train and care for all elms identically. If they produce wings, the wings all get knocked off when I wire, so they're not part of the final design anyway. The point here is to highlight what wonderful subjects our native elms are for bonsai.

 

[markyscott]

I DO know! That's why I work with pines!

And only SHOHIN deciduous!

But, a highly ramified JBP requires a lot of tedious needle pulling, bud thinning and decandling at the appropriate time!

Really, "finished" trees (highly ramified) trees are a lot of work!

It's the truth - the end of all of this hard work is only a lot more hard work. Conifers have their own crosses to bear and, in reality, are only a little less manly than deciduous trees. You have to enjoy the journey. It's only work if you don't like what you're doing.

I think this is just the natural selection process of bonsai collections. As trees get more developed and refined, you have less time to care for lower quality material. So collections shrink. I recall a time when I had a hundred trees or so. I've donated dozens and dozens at club auctions and convetions. Now I'm down to about thirty or forty and it feels as though I still have too many. I'd like pair down a bit more. I'm still buying, but I restrict my very occasional purchases to very high quality material.

 

[mcpesq817]

Mama mia, what a nice tree! I love your vision for it. I have a decent sized cedar elm so I can only imagine how heavy yours must be. They really take well to bonsai culture don't they? I worked my branches back really hard this spring, and I have back budding everywhere. Just have to be careful with wiring, as the branches can plump up really fast out of nowhere giving you scars. I get wings on my strong growing branches too.

By the way, do you mind me asking how you added the new tires to the hydraulic cart? I have one too for my big trees, but not being able to roll it on my lawn limits its usefulness. I don't mean to take your thread off topic, so feel free to PM me if that's easier. Thanks!

 

[Zach Smith]

Thanks Zach - those are good observations. Maybe one day it will flower and I'll know for sure - but I've never seen an elm flower in bonsai culture. Do yours?

I've never had one flower in a pot, nor have I seen a photo of one blooming. Must be modesty.

Zach

 

[markyscott]

Mama mia, what a nice tree! I love your vision for it. I have a decent sized cedar elm so I can only imagine how heavy yours must be. They really take well to bonsai culture don't they? I worked my branches back really hard this spring, and I have back budding everywhere. Just have to be careful with wiring, as the branches can plump up really fast out of nowhere giving you scars. I get wings on my strong growing branches too.

By the way, do you mind me asking how you added the new tires to the hydraulic cart? I have one too for my big trees, but not being able to roll it on my lawn limits its usefulness. I don't mean to take your thread off topic, so feel free to PM me if that's easier. Thanks!

It's no problem to talk about here. The original wheels are make the cart unusable unless you have a perfectly flat surface to roll it on. Doesn't look like my garden to be sure.

I bought the cart at Harbor Freight.
http://t.harborfreight.com/1000-lbs-capacity-hydraulic-table-cart-69148.html?utm_referrer=https://www.google.com/

At a cost of ~$260.

If I had to do it over again, I'd buy the 500lb version. I'm never going to own a 1000lb tree, no matter how macho that would make me look. The 1000lb cart is damned heavy if you plan on lifting it up into the back of a pickup or something.

http://t.harborfreight.com/500-lb-Capacity-Hydraulic-Table-Cart-60730.html

It's cheaper too.

I also purchased pneumatic wheels there.

http://t.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=Pneumatic+wheels

The front wheels are on swivel casters which bolt right on to the original casters. The back wheels are pneumatic with a ball bearing race in the hub. I removed the original back wheels and fitted it out with an axel made from a threaded steel rod. I used bolts and lock washers to hold the wheels in place. Hope that helps - let me know if you want more pictures.

 

[mcpesq817]

That's great Scott, helps me a ton, thank you! I have the 500 pound version. Strike me down if I ever get a 500+ pound tree

 

[markyscott]

That's great Scott, helps me a ton, thank you! I have the 500 pound version. Strike me down if I ever get a 500+ pound tree

But the 1000lb cart is far more manly - if I ever showed up at an event with my 1000lb cart and you had your puny 500lb cart you might be laughed right out of the show.

All kidding aside, the trickiest thing is finding the right wheel sizes to level your cart. The caster supported wheels have to be a lot smaller than the pneumatic wheels or the cart won't be level. Or you need to weld new wheel brackets on that will level the cart to accommodate the new size wheels. It's a bit difficult to explain, but you'll see as soon as you try to build it. That was a bit of trial and error for me.

 

[mcpesq817]

Sorry, one last question. Do you recall what wheel size you used?

Now all you need is to add some flames on the side, a spoiler and some spinners and you'll have more women than you know what to do with

 

[AlainK]

All I have to say is... we're not playing in the same category!

Awsome tree...

 

[markyscott]

Sorry, one last question. Do you recall what wheel size you used?

Now all you need is to add some flames on the side, a spoiler and some spinners and you'll have more women than you know what to do with

It needs a good airbrush job to be sure.

I'll let you know the wheel sizes when I get home. It's not perfectly level with the ones I have. Good enough for government work to be sure, but bigger rear wheels or smaller wheels in the casters would be better.

 

[markyscott]

I've never had one flower in a pot, nor have I seen a photo of one blooming. Must be modesty.

Zach

Interesting - I figured if anyone would have seen them flower in a pot it would have been you. Maybe they just don't easily flower in a pot.

 

[leatherback]

.. wow ..

 

[rockm]

Interesting - I figured if anyone would have seen them flower in a pot it would have been you. Maybe they just don't easily flower in a pot.

The other thing about this tree is that older growth has no wings. Wings are lost on cedar elm as it grows older. Ulmus alata retains the wings and looks pretty distinctive in the wild. The winged elms near me look like this

 

[Zach Smith]

Interesting - I figured if anyone would have seen them flower in a pot it would have been you. Maybe they just don't easily flower in a pot.

True enough, but there you go. I've had many very old water-elms that have never popped one flower; had to search online to find out what they even looked like.

 

[AaronThomas]

the new growth has a hint of red which I've noticed on my cedar elms

Zach... Are ceder elms the only elms that exhibit a red hue on new growth?