My new, and 1st, Shimpaku

[jedge76]

I picked up this 20-25 year old shimpaku last Saturday from my local bonsai nursery. It's my 1st tree with any real age and decent size, so I am excited. It seems difficult to visualize my options clearly with some of the unnecessary foliage inhibiting the view. I don't think I want to do too much pruning as I slip-potted, more less, into some local calidama and want to see how it reacts. Anyhow, I had this tree on hold and have been looking forward to getting it for some time. Just curious what all the knowledgeable b-nutters thought.

1st pic is probably the front, 2nd is the side, 3rd is the probably back of the tree.

 

[edprocoat]

That is going to need a lot of work, sure to keep you busy for a few years. I think your first step would be to try and get some foliage back near the trunk, Shimp's backbud fairly well so that should be doable. I would wait till it recovers from the slip-potting first. The next issue will be those roots, personally I like the gnarly exposed big roots like that . I feel they add interest and character although most Bonsai people will tell you they have to go, especially the larger one that is above the soil line. I would say if you were going for a leaning style you could orient the plant to place most that root in the soil, cutting it would be a worry but should work. In the second picture it looks like you have some long thin branches on the left bottom that could be approach grafted back on the trunk. Good luck with it and keep us updated.

ed

 

[Vance Wood]

Define what you mean by slip potting. This tree has been in it's current potting for quite a few years, you can tell by the dying growth near the tips of the branches. The tree is trying to abandon unnecessary growth in favor of the more vigorous. You need to concentrate on restoring the tree to health. Seriously you need to define for us what you actually mean by slip potting. Depending on what you did here may determine what else can be done to speed this tree up.

We don't mean to insert ourselves in your business but you come and ask and sometimes you don't always hear what you want or expect. DON'T PRUNE OFF ANY GROWTH AT THIS TIME. This tree is going to take a lot of cutting back sooner rather than latter but it needs to be done the right way at the right time. This is going to depend on the answer to the question: What do you mean by slip potting?

The above Juniper is a Shimpaku developed from a nursery tree. It looked like yours a number of years ago. This tree was photographed before it was cleaned up and detailed, a process that takes constant attention every year. To those who say don't pinch Junipers have not defined exactly what they mean, or don't mean. For the most part, and I'm sorry for who they are, I consider their advise on this point comparable to a bag filled with manure; at least as far as I am concerned. I think that over 25 years of doing it wrong I would have killed my tree by now, understanding that the chief objection to the technique is that it weakens the tree.

 

[jedge76]

That is going to need a lot of work, sure to keep you busy for a few years. I think your first step would be to try and get some foliage back near the trunk, Shimp's backbud fairly well so that should be doable. I would wait till it recovers from the slip-potting first. The next issue will be those roots, personally I like the gnarly exposed big roots like that . I feel they add interest and character although most Bonsai people will tell you they have to go, especially the larger one that is above the soil line. I would say if you were going for a leaning style you could orient the plant to place most that root in the soil, cutting it would be a worry but should work. In the second picture it looks like you have some long thin branches on the left bottom that could be approach grafted back on the trunk. Good luck with it and keep us updated.

ed

Thanks for the reply, Ed. I noticed some newer growth on the lower part of the tree that looks promising for years down the road. I understand your point on the roots. The base was the main reason I liked this tree, but I can see what you're saying about that one root that is kinda by itself.

Define what you mean by slip potting.

In this case I removed the tree from the pot it is in in these photos, root raked slightly on the top, very bottom and sparingly on the sides to remove some of the caked on soil that seemed a little on the wet side and compacted (the soil that is). I did indeed tease some roots out, but not many and then filled in the bottom and sides of the pot with the hard pan soil that is visible in the photos. I didn't get into the interior of the roots, only the peripheral areas and didn't remove anything--neither branch nor root, no matter whether the branch was alive or not.

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks for the reply, Ed. I noticed some newer growth on the lower part of the tree that looks promising for years down the road. I understand your point on the roots. The base was the main reason I liked this tree, but I can see what you're saying about that one root that is kinda by itself.



In this case I removed the tree from the pot it is in in these photos, root raked slightly on the top, very bottom and sparingly on the sides to remove some of the caked on soil that seemed a little on the wet side and compacted (the soil that is). I did indeed tease some roots out, but not many and then filled in the bottom and sides of the pot with the hard pan soil that is visible in the photos. I didn't get into the interior of the roots, only the peripheral areas and didn't remove anything--neither branch nor root, no matter whether the branch was alive or not.

That answers a lot. The nature of the old soil is the problem. If it is wet and compacted it has broken down and needs to be refreshed as soon as possible. Shimpakus take to repotting well they do not take being pot bound or in a soil mix that can't breath. You should consider doing this as soon as possible. You are not likely to hurt the tree, do what needs to be done and leave it alone for at least one growing season. Once having done this don't be tempted to fool around with it.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

To those who say don't pinch Junipers have not defined exactly what they mean, or don't mean. For the most part, and I'm sorry for who they are, I consider their advise on this point comparable to a bag filled with manure; at least as far as I am concerned. I think that over 25 years of doing it wrong I would have killed my tree by now.

Not cool Vance. I have been exceptionally clear on defining what I mean and don't mean by pinching. Frankly, if it took me 25 years to get those results, I'd be considering a new fresh bag.

To the OP...have fun, shimps can be rewarding. I see this tree with the right side removed/jinned, and wire some movement into the center section, which will become the next section of trunk. Spring is a good time to do this work, just as it's starting to grow.

 

[jedge76]

That answers a lot. The nature of the old soil is the problem. If it is wet and compacted it has broken down and needs to be refreshed as soon as possible. Shimpakus take to repotting well they do not take being pot bound or in a soil mix that can't breath. You should consider doing this as soon as possible. You are not likely to hurt the tree, do what needs to be done and leave it alone for at least one growing season. Once having done this don't be tempted to fool around with it.

So that means I can bare root this tree and remove all soil? And promise not to touch a branch on this tree till the spring of '15 rolls in.

Not cool Vance. I have been exceptionally clear on defining what I mean and don't mean by pinching. Frankly, if it took me 25 years to get those results, I'd be considering a new fresh bag.

To the OP...have fun, shimps can be rewarding. I see this tree with the right side removed/jinned, and wire some movement into the center section, which will become the next section of trunk. Spring is a good time to do this work, just as it's starting to grow.

I am really enamored with junipers and shimpaku in particular. I am glad to have a fun tree or project now and thankful to have so many wonderful minds chime in on it's care. Thanks Brian, I like your thoughts on the movement going forward. What do you think about the base of this tree? I like the exposed roots as Ed mentioned.

 

[Vance Wood]

Not cool Vance. I have been exceptionally clear on defining what I mean and don't mean by pinching. Frankly, if it took me 25 years to get those results, I'd be considering a new fresh bag.

To the OP...have fun, shimps can be rewarding. I see this tree with the right side removed/jinned, and wire some movement into the center section, which will become the next section of trunk. Spring is a good time to do this work, just as it's starting to grow.

You have not been exceptionally clear and I am sorry, I forgot you were in that bunch, but I am as entitled to my opinion of this concept as you are of your opinion of my work. You are right my trees are crap and yours well--------they're yours. You have not cared much for what I do and I have tried to keep out of your way but when I believe you are wrong I am not going to sit by and say nothing leaving people not knowing what to do, or not given an alternative.

 

[A Random User]

just my opinion...
since you have so much foliage right above the base of the trunk.
I would remove all of the thin lanky trunks, jinning them, and make
this tree into a shohin or mame.

 

[Vance Wood]

So that means I can bare root this tree and remove all soil? And promise not to touch a branch on this tree till the spring of '15 rolls in.



I am really enamored with junipers and shimpaku in particular. I am glad to have a fun tree or project now and thankful to have so many wonderful minds chime in on it's care. Thanks Brian, I like your thoughts on the movement going forward. What do you think about the base of this tree? I like the exposed roots as Ed mentioned.

Don't listen to me Brian seems to think the condition of the soil is not important. There are a lot of good things about this tree. Sometimes the un-fun things are in saving it's life.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Don't listen to me Brian seems to think the condition of the soil is not important. There are a lot of good things about this tree. Sometimes the un-fun things are in saving it's life.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I have not commented on the condition of the soil in this thread...however my signature file clearly links to my positions on soil and fertilizer. I do not debate those topics here.

You know what's funny Vance? We'd get along just fine if we kept our conversation to politics and left out all this bonsai nonsense...

 

[Vance Wood]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. I have not commented on the condition of the soil in this thread...however my signature file clearly links to my positions on soil and fertilizer. I do not debate those topics here.

You know what's funny Vance? We'd get along just fine if we kept our conversation to politics and left out all this bonsai nonsense...

You know Brian? We'd get along just fine if you stopped thinking that the entire site, not just part of it, does not revolve around checking out everything against your "signature file" as though it was considered a pre-requisite for any newbie that comes on this site.

As to putting words into your mouth? That is precisely the problem: You said nothing. As to the politics well we at least agree on something.

Hubiris is its own reward sometimes.

 

[october]

This tree does have potential. Probably as sawgrass suggested as a shohin or much smaller tree than it is now. However, there will not be a tree if the important issues are not addressed first. The soil looks fresh. Like it has not began to break down yet. Is this the case or is it that someone put fresh soil on the surface and the actual bottom soil is old and compacted?

Next, it could be that the tree just has it's winter color, but it is not a healthy looking color for a juniper. Normally in winter, a juniper like this would turn a purplish/brown color or it might just stay green. This tree looks somewhat pale. Also, the ends of some of the bottom foliage looks gray, which is a sign of spider mites. If it is, these will have to be delt with immediately.

If it were my tree and the tree is in good well draining soil, I would leave it alone. If it is not, lifting the tree out and putting it in a terra cotta pot with good drainage and some fresh soil under and around the root ball will do it some good. Also, you should not bare root any conifer. After this, I would let it recover. However, even though styling should be put off, you can cut away what you don't need. Maybe jin or remove on of the trunks. Next year, you can prune and wire.

As far as styling, there are 2 ways you could go. First, work with one trunk and develop that into a whole new tree. The other option would be to pick one or 2 trunks, wrap them in raffia and put some wild bends and twists in them to create a much smaller and more compact tree. Personally, I would go with the bending and twisting option.

Rob

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You know Brian? We'd get along just fine if you stopped thinking that the entire site, not just part of it, does not revolve around checking out everything against your "signature file" as though it was considered a pre-requisite for any newbie that comes on this site.

As to putting words into your mouth? That is precisely the problem: You said nothing. As to the politics well we at least agree on something.

Hubiris is its own reward sometimes.

Just to be sure I'm clear...6 months ago I posted (at your request, with photos and results) the method of pinching/trimming new growth on junipers, taught to me by Japanese-trained artists while standing in my back yard. Guys who are, at this moment, in Japan preparing trees for display in Kokufu-ten.

You stated it was not exceptionally clear, yet proceed to argue against the technique, equating it with a bag of ----, then put words in my mouth about soil, and then had the audacity to suggest I think this site revolves around checking my opinions. All because I suggested that your results are slowed by using an outdated technique.

Read my site or don't, it's fine. I put it out there in case people like my work and want to see how I do it. It takes plenty of time and pays nothing, but I happen to enjoy it. It's also an outlet to share without getting into arguments with people who would rather snipe than learn.

I have no interest in convincing you of anything, and don't appreciate your assumptions and personal attacks. I wish you all the success you're due, as you soldier on doing what you think is right and disparaging anyone who continues to learn, grow, and share.

 

[Stan Kengai]

jedge, regarding the overall color of your juniper, yours looks very similar to the coloring on my Kishu junipers, and may be perfectly normal. Rob, is right about the gray foliage on the undersides of the branches, in that it may be a sign of spider mites. I would also agree with him about bending a trunk or two with raffia and wire. Even if you don't end up going in that direction, curved jins usually look much better than straight.

 

[Vance Wood]

Just to be sure I'm clear...6 months ago I posted (at your request, with photos and results) the method of pinching/trimming new growth on junipers, taught to me by Japanese-trained artists while standing in my back yard. Guys who are, at this moment, in Japan preparing trees for display in Kokufu-ten.

You stated it was not exceptionally clear, yet proceed to argue against the technique, equating it with a bag of ----, then put words in my mouth about soil, and then had the audacity to suggest I think this site revolves around checking my opinions. All because I suggested that your results are slowed by using an outdated technique.

Read my site or don't, it's fine. I put it out there in case people like my work and want to see how I do it. It takes plenty of time and pays nothing, but I happen to enjoy it. It's also an outlet to share without getting into arguments with people who would rather snipe than learn.

I have no interest in convincing you of anything, and don't appreciate your assumptions and personal attacks. I wish you all the success you're due, as you soldier on doing what you think is right and disparaging anyone who continues to learn, grow, and share.

I tried to comment on it then, that I thought it vague but you were starting to take the defensive and (to me) holier than thou attitude you are taking now so I walked away, something I am going to do now.

 

[jedge76]

just my opinion...
since you have so much foliage right above the base of the trunk.
I would remove all of the thin lanky trunks, jinning them, and make
this tree into a shohin or mame.

I am a huge Shohin fan and like that idea very much. I actually had that general idea in my idea at time of purchase because it felt to me that the trunk I enjoyed with this tree may take on more prominence in a shohin style. What do I know, though.

This tree does have potential. Probably as sawgrass suggested as a shohin or much smaller tree than it is now. However, there will not be a tree if the important issues are not addressed first. The soil looks fresh. Like it has not began to break down yet. Is this the case or is it that someone put fresh soil on the surface and the actual bottom soil is old and compacted?

Next, it could be that the tree just has it's winter color, but it is not a healthy looking color for a juniper. Normally in winter, a juniper like this would turn a purplish/brown color or it might just stay green. This tree looks somewhat pale. Also, the ends of some of the bottom foliage looks gray, which is a sign of spider mites. If it is, these will have to be delt with immediately.

If it were my tree and the tree is in good well draining soil, I would leave it alone. If it is not, lifting the tree out and putting it in a terra cotta pot with good drainage and some fresh soil under and around the root ball will do it some good. Also, you should not bare root any conifer. After this, I would let it recover. However, even though styling should be put off, you can cut away what you don't need. Maybe jin or remove on of the trunks. Next year, you can prune and wire.

As far as styling, there are 2 ways you could go. First, work with one trunk and develop that into a whole new tree. The other option would be to pick one or 2 trunks, wrap them in raffia and put some wild bends and twists in them to create a much smaller and more compact tree. Personally, I would go with the bending and twisting option.

Rob

Hey Rob...the soil in the pics I posted is a local product called calidama...if you search the forums you'll see some mention of it from some other central California folks. It's good stuff for aeration, it's quick draining and the particles hold on water well as they water saturates them. I pulled the tree out and placed some of this soil under, around and on top of the old soil...as far as the old soil, I root raked much of it away from the aforementioned areas because it was compacted and wet, but mainly I raked the areas on the outside of the rootball and then dropped it back into it's original pot with the calidama. I was actually thinking of putting this tree into a large pond basket, but terra cotta might be good, too.

As far as the color of the plant, it looks pretty healthy in person. It is in a winter color of sorts, although nowhere near what my squamata is showing presently. There are some smaller, dead branches that are grey that looked as though the tree abandoned them in favor of some of the upper growth as Vance mentioned, but I think the overall color is decent.

I like you're idea of raffia and bending...go for that gnarled, twisty look. I had initially thought of choosing a main trunk and doing away with the rest, but I am liking the twist and bend route the more and more I think of it. Hmmm...great idea. Thanks for Rob for spending the time to help me out.

jedge, regarding the overall color of your juniper, yours looks very similar to the coloring on my Kishu junipers, and may be perfectly normal. Rob, is right about the gray foliage on the undersides of the branches, in that it may be a sign of spider mites. I would also agree with him about bending a trunk or two with raffia and wire. Even if you don't end up going in that direction, curved jins usually look much better than straight.

Hey Stan, thanks for replying. Yes, as I mentioned to Rob up above I really like the raffia and bending idea. That sounds like a lot of fun as far as where my imagination would be allowed to go. I have some good ideas from you fine folks. I really appreciate it.

Right now, I am going to dedicate all of my energy toward getting this tree in peak condition so that I can do some work on it in '15. I think Rob mentioned it, but there's no reason I can cut off some of the dead and unnecessary branches, right?

 

[jedge76]

Brian and Vance...you guys are both so knowledgeable and I have searched these forums a million times in the past several months and more times than not one of you two is offering some wonderful advice and sporting beautiful trees in your respective bonsai resumes. I am just a new feller 'round here, but I think one aspect of bonsai to remember is the peace and harmony practicing bonsai should bring. Right? So, with that said, I offer up the idea of a steel caged match between you two...the old WWF style, ya know? What do ya say? No holds barred. Maybe we can get a pay per view streaming on b-nut.

Seriously, thank you two for your opinions. I enjoy learning from heavyweights like the two of you. Now kiss and make up.

 

[Vance Wood]

This tree does have potential. Probably as sawgrass suggested as a shohin or much smaller tree than it is now. However, there will not be a tree if the important issues are not addressed first. The soil looks fresh. Like it has not began to break down yet. Is this the case or is it that someone put fresh soil on the surface and the actual bottom soil is old and compacted?

Next, it could be that the tree just has it's winter color, but it is not a healthy looking color for a juniper. Normally in winter, a juniper like this would turn a purplish/brown color or it might just stay green. This tree looks somewhat pale. Also, the ends of some of the bottom foliage looks gray, which is a sign of spider mites. If it is, these will have to be delt with immediately.

If it were my tree and the tree is in good well draining soil, I would leave it alone. If it is not, lifting the tree out and putting it in a terra cotta pot with good drainage and some fresh soil under and around the root ball will do it some good. Also, you should not bare root any conifer. After this, I would let it recover. However, even though styling should be put off, you can cut away what you don't need. Maybe jin or remove on of the trunks. Next year, you can prune and wire.

As far as styling, there are 2 ways you could go. First, work with one trunk and develop that into a whole new tree. The other option would be to pick one or 2 trunks, wrap them in raffia and put some wild bends and twists in them to create a much smaller and more compact tree. Personally, I would go with the bending and twisting option.

Rob

The reason I brought up the soil is found in the OP"S post #4:--In this case I removed the tree from the pot it is in in these photos, root raked slightly on the top, very bottom and sparingly on the sides to remove some of the caked on soil that seemed a little on the wet side and compacted (the soil that is). I did indeed tease some roots out, but not many and then filled in the bottom and sides of the pot with the hard pan soil that is visible in the photos. I didn't get into the interior of the roots, only the peripheral areas and didn't remove anything--neither branch nor root, no matter whether the branch was alive or not.

Not only did it seem to me that the soil was not so good but in combination with the reasonably good and free draining soil that it was added to, there could be a major incompatibility with the potential of creating major root rot problems. It was my judgement, right or wrong, that resolving the soil and root problems was more important than selecting an immediate design path for what could potentially be a dead tree.

Everybody is always in such a hurry to design a tree, that's the way it is, I understand that, but if we know better should we not oblige ourselves to at least tell them they might be making a mistake at this point rather than the ubiquitous: Killing trees is the tuition we pay for learning bonsai?

 

[jedge76]

Not only did it seem to me that the soil was not so good but in combination with the reasonably good and free draining soil that it was added to, there could be a major incompatibility with the potential of creating major root rot problems.

Hey Vance..so, with the new soil I substituted in and around the tree's rootball, do you think that should remedy any potential of root rot?

I am contemplating another slip into a pond basket for other reasons than root rot, but that may help also if it's not too hard on the tree at this point.