Willow, Large root reduction question. Year 2 Tree.

[ComfortEagle626]

Hello from Chico Ca.



I ended up with a volunteer willow in my water tray last summer, so I gave it some movement and put it in this little green pot. This summer the roots have pushed so far out of the pot that I am considering sacrificing the pot to keep a mass of roots.

My question is,

Should I break the pot and keep the roots pattern about 12" in diameter?

Or, should I cut the roots at the bottom of the pot and keep this supper small root ball?

A few pics.

Here the roots have grown at least 12" away from the bottom of the pot.

The thickness of the root area is almost at thick as the pot.

Another concern I have is leaf size. I am hoping with some ramification and slowing down the tree will result in a smaller leaf size, so I am inclined to hack it back in early spring, top, and bottom. Yet I would like some more trunk growth so I am thinking about potting it up to a large grow bag, but with the growth rate of the roots, I think it could get out of control rather quickly.

Potential leaf size

 

[Shibui]

Willows are renowned for rapid growth and getting out of hand real quick. Most of us avoid them for that reason.
Willows will tolerate huge root reduction so you could chop the external roots and it is likely to just keep growing. I would just prune the top hard to reduce water demand then chop the roots back to the drain hole and start over.
Willow root growth is so prolific that you'll need to also cut it out of the pot and reduce the roots in the pot further early in spring so there's room for roots to grow next summer. Annual root rune for willow. Trim the top as often as needed, maybe 5-7 times each summer. Trimming promotes ramification. The more it grows the more you can trim and the quicker ramification develops.

 

[penumbra]

Or, should I cut the roots at the bottom of the pot and keep this supper small root ball?

Yes, but wait until late winter / early spring before it leafs out.
Not a good bonsai plant and you should be prepared to go at the roots and prune heavily every year.

 

[Srt8madness]

I've read the "not a good bonsai plant" several times, but it seems like a pretty dang good bonsai if you enjoy bonsai tasks and know how to use it (i.e. as a broom instead of weeping). I see a lot more stuff that frankly looks like junk, or responds poorly to bonsai technique, that gets a pass. Collective PTSD of the ebay willow scam?

 

[penumbra]

I've read the "not a good bonsai plant" several times, but it seems like a pretty dang good bonsai if you enjoy bonsai tasks and know how to use it (i.e. as a broom instead of weeping).

Do you have an example of one?
I would love to see it.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Weeping willows are indeed absolutely terrible, so temper your expectations. Curly willows are orders of magnitude better--see my profile pic and accompanying thread. With curly willows you can get excellent leaf reduction and ramification.
With that being said, here are a couple of thoughts:
1) You don't ever have to worry about cutting too many roots off a weeping willow. You can probably chain saw off at ground level and use the trunk as a cutting in water.
2) Getting a bigger trunk and hacking the tree back are polar opposites. You want it to grow ten feet tall, preferably in the ground, to get a bigger trunk. Hacking back just stalls that process.
3) You won't ever get good ramification on a weeping willow because of their dreadful dieback, which is both brutal and completely random.

 

[rockm]

You can remove all the roots from a weeping willow and it will live, provided it has ample water--like submerged--until roots show up. I've seen thigh-sized branches root simply by sticking them into a bucket of water in the summer. Roots in a week or so...I've only seen one or two weeping willow bonsai worth a damn. Unfortunately, Most are done using spindly, wiggly thin trunks that can't visually support the top mass of foliage. Larger and huge trunks are better than silly thin ones...As bonsai, they are extremely "needy" requiring CONSTANT wiring pruning, yearly repotting, etc. They will not "weep" in small sizes (smaller than the in-ground trees) unless they're forced to with wire--wiring every branch two to three times a summer...

 

[Mikecheck123]

You can remove all the roots from a weeping willow and it will live, provided it has ample water--like submerged--until roots show up. I've seen thigh-sized branches root simply by sticking them into a bucket of water in the summer. Roots in a week or so...I've only seen one or two weeping willow bonsai worth a damn. Unfortunately, Most are done using spindly, wiggly thin trunks that can't visually support the top mass of foliage. Larger and huge trunks are better than silly thin ones...As bonsai, they are extremely "needy" requiring CONSTANT wiring pruning, yearly repotting, etc. They will not "weep" in small sizes (smaller than the in-ground trees) unless they're forced to with wire--wiring every branch two to three times a summer...

It is possible to get a weeping style using weights, e.g., clothes pins are perfect for it. However, there are two major drawbacks.

First, unless your tree is five feet tall or more, any weeping branches will obscure the trunk partially or completely. So it'll just look like a bush.

Second, the chore becomes exponentially impossible to manage.

 

[ComfortEagle626]

I've read the "not a good bonsai plant" several times, but it seems like a pretty dang good bonsai if you enjoy bonsai tasks and know how to use it (i.e. as a broom instead of weeping). I see a lot more stuff that frankly looks like junk, or responds poorly to bonsai technique, that gets a pass. Collective PTSD of the ebay willow scam?

I am not aware of the "Willow Scam"
It's fun watching this thing bomb off. You can almost watch it grow in real-time.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Willow Scam

Lots of scammers sell willow cuttings alongside a picture of a gorgeous weeping bonsai. Which is never EVER an actual willow.

They also try to make the cuttings you're getting sound exotic.

DRAGON WILLOW! (it's just a curly willow)

AUSTRALIAN WILLOW! (it's just a hybrid willow)

What you get in the mail are three sticks about the exact shape of dynamite. Looks NOTHING AT ALL like the picture, which, by the way, you could never achieve with what they're selling. A common theme in the strangely scammy underbelly of bonsai.

 

[Mikecheck123]

The other highly reliable scam is seeds or cuttings of fancy wisteria cultivars. Because it will be YEARS AND YEARS before your plant is mature enough to flower, the seller is long gone by then.

And guess what! The scammers are never ever actually selling fancy cultivars, but rather just the stock purple and white wisteria you can buy anywhere.

No to mention that they sell the plant with a misleading picture of a glorious bonsai specimen in full bloom, which again, you could never achieve with what they send you.

 

[cishepard]

I have this weeping willow in my photo inspiration folder, but no info on it, unfortunately. It is a lovely tree …

 

[Mikecheck123]

I have this weeping willow in my photo inspiration folder, but no info on it, unfortunately. It is a lovely tree …

View attachment 457143

Very nice--probably the best I've seen.

Still, notice that if it was in leaf, the weeping branches would obscure the beautiful trunk. An inherent tension with weeping styles.

 

[penumbra]

More to the point regarding developing a tree like this, they must have to wire all those branches down at least once a year.
Sure, anyone would love to have a tree like this but few of us here could ever maintain it.

 

[ComfortEagle626]

Lots of scammers sell willow cuttings alongside a picture of a gorgeous weeping bonsai. Which is never EVER an actual willow.

They also try to make the cuttings you're getting sound exotic.

DRAGON WILLOW! (it's just a curly willow)

AUSTRALIAN WILLOW! (it's just a hybrid willow)

What you get in the mail are three sticks about the exact shape of dynamite. Looks NOTHING AT ALL like the picture, which, by the way, you could never achieve with what they're selling. A common theme in the strangely scammy underbelly of bonsai.

How unfortunate. Thanks for the heads up. This is why I believe in local bonsai groups and clubs. Learning and seeing what works in your area is important because importing from who knows where from what knows climate seems a little dicey as a beginner.

 

[ComfortEagle626]

Thank you for all of the replies. After thinking about it for a while, I'm going to change my ideas for the tree. If this tree is going to be challenging to work on and develop as a bonsai, I'll spend my time elsewhere. I do see an opportunity, though. I see how my tray has this considerable root growth and healthy activity. I will use the tree to change the microclimate in my shaded growing area. It can get scorched, hot, and windy here in the Northern California Valley. Maybe this tree can help out the other trees around it.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

I kept one half submerged on a cinder block in a tub of goldfish.
It wept. Mainly because the limbs got so long.
Repotted every year and whacked hell out of roots.
Indestructible thing!
Shaded the fish really nicely.

 

[ComfortEagle626]

I kept one half submerged on a cinder block in a tub of goldfish.
It wept. Mainly because the limbs got so long.
Repotted every year and whacked hell out of roots.
Indestructible thing!
Shaded the fish really nicely.

Good to hear they are so resilient.

I had another idea for it. Mume

The cuttings take hold so fast that I will start developing some small cascades by growing the root base in a small pot sidewise. Then when it's time to cut the roots off, I will tilt it up and see how it looks.