What Went Wrong with this Nursery Stock Cutback?

[e~b]

Where did I go wrong with this nursery stock cutback? You can roast me, just want to learn from my mistakes

My disclaimer is that I'm a total beginner and I only want to learn as much as I can with this tree - I have no expectation that this will become even a halfway presentable bonsai.

Pre-prune - Informal upright/slanting style seems feasible

1st prune - clearly a total mess.. but not exactly sure where I went wrong (besides the wire job, that was clearly awful). Kept main leader and bent it using wire. Tried to cut back all other thick branches and leave the more pliable branches.




2nd prune - my attempt to clean up/correct, redid the wire and shortened shoots. Felt that the branches (aside from leader) were too long, and cutback was needed to stop the lengthening/thickening of these branches



My Thought Process
Looking at the pre-prune picture, an informal upright or "slant" style seemed feasible. I tried to prune and wire accordingly after the first pruning. However after looking at the tree, I knew there was something wrong... it did not resemble a cutback that more experienced practitioners would do. The shoots turned upside down from my twisting/bending of the wire, and a lot of my foliage was now on the underside... perhaps a lesson in the steps/considerations when planning to both prune and wire at once. So for second pruning, I reduced the length of the shoots and then re-wired more carefully. I think the wiring is far better, but something still feels off.

I still cannot visualize an apex or front. Perhaps another lesson in having a clear gameplan before getting the scissors out.

TLDR - I have a tree that will probably always be ugly, but I wanna learn from my mistakes! Please roast me!

 

[RoadManDenDron]

You need to know your front before you go chopping branches off,

How can you know you don't need a branch if you don't know where it's situated to your design?

Junipers strength is in their foliage and you have now removed alot of this trees foliage and so have left it severely weakened

Here's to hoping it pulls through

Your wire needs to be anchored to the trunk to have any chance of working,

The actual wire application is pretty tidy but it is not connected or anchored to the tree, here is a free course in wiring that I hope you find useful

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

 

[rockm]

First thought ---choose better material. One of the first rules in developing trees is to start with a tree that has sparked some kind of vision on how to proceed. That's one reason why most good bonsai stock can be hard to find and expensive. There is some direction to the design naturally present. Simply diving in and expecting to be inspired mid-way through is unrealistic and possibly a death sentence for the tree. It will teach you nothing.

As far as what you've done here, see above.

 

[e~b]

You need to know your front before you go chopping branches off,

How can you know you don't need a branch if you don't know where it's situated to your design?

Junipers strength is in their foliage and you have now removed alot of this trees foliage and so have left it severely weakened

Here's to hoping it pulls through

Your wire needs to be anchored to the trunk to have any chance of working,

The actual wire application is pretty tidy but it is not connected or anchored to the tree, here is a free course in wiring that I hope you find useful

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

This was the front that drove my decision making for cuts:


My brain is envisioning pads here

As you can see, it leaves a lot to be desired, explaining my indecisiveness on what the front should actually be.

I understood before pruning that I was severely weakening the tree, so im also hoping that it pulls through. But figured it is better to learn boundaries on material like this.

EDIT: (I cannot watch the linked wiring course right now, but thank you for that resource... my question below is probably clearly answered there so my apologies)

In terms of wiring - does your recommendation apply to all the wiring I did? Or just the wire on the leader? I tried to "anchor" the wire by using only one piece for secondary branches (and the jin). I thought this was good practice, but maybe I missing one wrap around the trunk in between the two branches? For the wire on the leader, I will wrap it around the trunk once before poking back into the soil.

 

[e~b]

First thought ---choose better material. One of the first rules in developing trees is to start with a tree that has sparked some kind of vision on how to proceed. That's one reason why most good bonsai stock can be hard to find and expensive. There is some direction to the design naturally present. Simply diving in and expecting to be inspired mid-way through is unrealistic and possibly a death sentence for the tree. It will teach you nothing.

As far as what you've done here, see above.

Interesting - i already knew this wasnt great material, but nothing to be learned from it? I was hoping to learn at least something from cheaper material I hear you though that if I am striving for a quality bonsai, this tree was always a dead end for a beginner like me

 

[RoadManDenDron]

OK,

These arrows point to the wires I can see from the pics that are not anchored

There may be more.

Ideally we aim for 1.5 rotations minimum to anchor, I'm not sure what you mean is good practice, but we try to wire 2 branches together and anchored to wire on the trunk so that everything can move in relation to the rest of the tree.

With this front the first branch appears from pics to be an eye poker, it is pointing straight towards the viewer instead of left or right

 

[queenofsheba52]

In my humble opinion, one can learn from every mistake. In that sense, you have learned several good lessons from an inexpensive piece of material. I started the hobby by butchering many nursery trees until I felt capable of taking on more expensive material, or digging that little wild crab apple with the great curvy trunk, and getting it to survive. About the only thing you have lost is a little money, wire and time.

I believe you have learned far more from this little tree than you realize.

 

[e~b]

I'm not sure what you mean is good practice, but we try to wire 2 branches together and anchored to wire on the trunk

This is exactly what I meant by 'good practice' - wiring two branches together. I did that, but seems i missed the step of then anchoring that wire to the trunk.

I think you identified all of the un-anchored wire, really appreciate the help! This seems like low-hanging fruit that I can easily correct with another attempt. And at the same time I can introduce more movement to the 'eye poker', bending it back left to clear out the front

 

[penumbra]

Too little patience. Too much, too soon. And poor timing. You have removed far too much foliage, and that on top of wiring, and then re-wiring, has destroyed most of the transport from roots to top. I have treated plants much more gently and still had them die from excess insults. Sorry, but I have very little hope that it will survive. At least it will hopefully serve as a lesson learned. Try it over and first learn to keep it alive.

 

[e~b]

Too little patience. Too much, too soon. And poor timing. You have removed far too much foliage, and that on top of wiring, and then re-wiring, has destroyed most of the transport from roots to top. I have treated plants much more gently and still had them die from excess insults. Sorry, but I have very little hope that it will survive. At least it will hopefully serve as a lesson learned. Try it over and first learn to keep it alive.

I appreciate your honesty! Can you help me understand the nuance between this video (which I have seen linked/recommended multiple times) and what I did? I am really struggling there. Every time I see a beginner do a cutback, the general reaction is "you killed it, that was dumb to do"... but then videos like the one linked come from a clearly accomplished bonsai artist. I dont have the experience to tell the difference.

In terms of timing, the growth had hardened off and spring is very unpredictable here in colorado... from what ive gathered, this is one of the better times to do heavy cutbacks here. Looking forward to joining the local club and get more educated on that however!

 

[Colorado]

Where did I go wrong with this nursery stock cutback? You can roast me, just want to learn from my mistakes

My disclaimer is that I'm a total beginner and I only want to learn as much as I can with this tree - I have no expectation that this will become even a halfway presentable bonsai.

Pre-prune - Informal upright/slanting style seems feasible

1st prune - clearly a total mess.. but not exactly sure where I went wrong (besides the wire job, that was clearly awful). Kept main leader and bent it using wire. Tried to cut back all other thick branches and leave the more pliable branches.
View attachment 554257
View attachment 554258
View attachment 554259

2nd prune - my attempt to clean up/correct, redid the wire and shortened shoots. Felt that the branches (aside from leader) were too long, and cutback was needed to stop the lengthening/thickening of these branches
View attachment 554266
View attachment 554268
View attachment 554269
My Thought Process
Looking at the pre-prune picture, an informal upright or "slant" style seemed feasible. I tried to prune and wire accordingly after the first pruning. However after looking at the tree, I knew there was something wrong... it did not resemble a cutback that more experienced practitioners would do. The shoots turned upside down from my twisting/bending of the wire, and a lot of my foliage was now on the underside... perhaps a lesson in the steps/considerations when planning to both prune and wire at once. So for second pruning, I reduced the length of the shoots and then re-wired more carefully. I think the wiring is far better, but something still feels off.

I still cannot visualize an apex or front. Perhaps another lesson in having a clear gameplan before getting the scissors out.

TLDR - I have a tree that will probably always be ugly, but I wanna learn from my mistakes! Please roast me!

Looks like a good learning experience! My main feedback would be to anchor the trunk wire in the soil, and to get some smaller wire to place the small branches/foliage.

When wiring juniper you always want to make sure you are positioning the branches so that the foliage is pointing up.

It’s really tough to do much with material this small. Much easier to position pads, branches, etc when you’ve got more tree to work with. But … as you know … maybe I am just biased to the big ones

I think you should try to keep working on this one with some small wire on those remaining small branches

 

[rockm]

Interesting - i already knew this wasnt great material, but nothing to be learned from it? I was hoping to learn at least something from cheaper material I hear you though that if I am striving for a quality bonsai, this tree was always a dead end for a beginner like me

Has it taught you that working with dead end material is a dead end? If so, it's done it's primary job. You can probably learn some wiring skills, but from what's been done, wiring it again may kill it. Another lesson is proper aftercare for stressed trees. This one will need some TLC in the coming weeks and months (where you going to put it for the winter is something else to learn from it)

FWIW, you're trying to run before you can walk here. Simply keeping the plant alive for a year is a reasonable goal. Wiring the crap out of it and doing heavy bending are two things that are acquired skills that take some time to learn in a less aggressive time frame.

Trying to learn from online videos is a time-waster for the most part, as you have no real frame of reference for who is a complete idiot and who knows what they're talking about online. Get to a club meeting, get advice and instruction IN PERSON. You will learn more in half an hour in person with someone knowledgeable than in hundreds of hours of watching videos on Youtube or, God Forbid, Insta, or Tik Tok.

 

[e~b]

My main feedback would be to anchor the trunk wire in the soil, and to get some smaller wire to place the small branches/foliage.

When wiring juniper you always want to make sure you are positioning the branches so that the foliage is pointing up.

Thanks for the pointers! When you say "anchor the trunk wire in the soil", are you referring to a specific technique, or just a better job than what I have already done? The wire is inserted maybe an inch into the soil currently... should probably be as close to the bottom of the pot as possible?

In terms of branch/foliage positioning - I think I went a little too hard on the twisting/tightening of the wire after applying it (very evident in prune #1 pics). I felt like my tree got turned inside out Sounds like my tree might already be doomed, so I'll give it another go with the wire and try to be a bit more tactical

 

[e~b]

Has it taught you that working with dead end material is a dead end? If so, it's done it's primary job. You can probably learn some wiring skills, but from what's been done, wiring it again may kill it. Another lesson is proper aftercare for stressed trees. This one will need some TLC in the coming weeks and months (where you going to put it for the winter is something else to learn from it)

FWIW, you're trying to run before you can walk here. Simply keeping the plant alive for a year is a reasonable goal. Wiring the crap out of it and doing heavy bending are two things that are acquired skills that take some time to learn in a less aggressive time frame.

Trying to learn from online videos is a time-waster for the most part, as you have no real frame of reference for who is a complete idiot and who knows what they're talking about online. Get to a club meeting, get advice and instruction IN PERSON. You will learn more in half an hour in person with someone knowledgeable than in hundreds of hours of watching videos on Youtube or, God Forbid, Insta, or Tik Tok.

That all makes sense. FWIW, I do have other trees (including junipers) that I refuse to do work on in order to learn the proper care... these trees are probably better starting material anyways. I just didnt want 3 years to pass and realize that, while I know how to keep a juniper alive, I don't know the first thing about actually applying wire, making cuts, branch selection, etc.

Thank you for your aftercare consideration, it is something that I need to dive into more

 

[LuZiKui]

I don't have any specific feedback on this tree outside of what's been provided, but I'll give you my .02 for future trees.

One of the first things I do with nursery stock is dig down into the soil a bit to try and understand the trunk that you're working with. Often times the base of the trunk will dictate the direction you are going to take the tree. You can always bend/move/style branches but for the most part you are stuck with the trunk and main branches. Once you have an idea of what the base of the trunk looks like you can use that info along with your branching to pick a front. Definitely try to establish a front next time before doing heavy pruning (sounds like you probably know that now).

Another thing that I find helpful is to try and think about how the tree would have grown in nature and what might have happened to it naturally (weather, ground eroding, snow loads, etc) to affect it. Styles are different between different artists but I'm trying to give the tree a believable story for how it came to look how it does. This is not my tree I just pulled it off the internet for an example:


For example, this tree has a large dead wood feature (jin) on the lower right side of the trunk. You could imagine there used to be a large branch there that became so big it snapped off in a snow storm or wind storm. Also you'll notice the lowest branches on the tree are either horizontal or going downwards. This would make sense because they're the largest and have dealt with snow loads for decades which pushes them down. They are also the widest part of the tree because they would need to extend out past the canopy to get good sunlight. You'll also notice the branches and trunk get smaller as you go up, which make sense because the top of the tree is going to be younger. So although this tree is probably largely man made, it tells a believable story.

For your initial styling I've noticed a few things. Your lowest jin looks believable (circled in green). The smaller jins are sort of out of place (circled in red). In nature little thin branches of dead wood would probably just break off. The one on the top is too long so it probably needs to be reduced to a nub. The other issue is your new main trunk (circled in blue) is pretty straight and boring, and also about the same size as the lower part of your trunk. You're always looking for taper and interesting movement so if you keep this tree long term you'll always struggle with that.



All that being said, it's a good learning experience and it sounds like you're going to be joining a club. That's the absolute best thing you can do and in a year you'll look back and laugh about this tree.

 

[e~b]

I don't have any specific feedback on this tree outside of what's been provided, but I'll give you my .02 for future trees.

One of the first things I do with nursery stock is dig down into the soil a bit to try and understand the trunk that you're working with. Often times the base of the trunk will dictate the direction you are going to take the tree. You can always bend/move/style branches but for the most part you are stuck with the trunk and main branches. Once you have an idea of what the base of the trunk looks like you can use that info along with your branching to pick a front. Definitely try to establish a front next time before doing heavy pruning (sounds like you probably know that now).

Another thing that I find helpful is to try and think about how the tree would have grown in nature and what might have happened to it naturally (weather, ground eroding, snow loads, etc) to affect it. Styles are different between different artists but I'm trying to give the tree a believable story for how it came to look how it does. This is not my tree I just pulled it off the internet for an example:
View attachment 554295

For example, this tree has a large dead wood feature (jin) on the lower right side of the trunk. You could imagine there used to be a large branch there that became so big it snapped off in a snow storm or wind storm. Also you'll notice the lowest branches on the tree are either horizontal or going downwards. This would make sense because they're the largest and have dealt with snow loads for decades which pushes them down. They are also the widest part of the tree because they would need to extend out past the canopy to get good sunlight. You'll also notice the branches and trunk get smaller as you go up, which make sense because the top of the tree is going to be younger. So although this tree is probably largely man made, it tells a believable story.

For your initial styling I've noticed a few things. Your lowest jin looks believable (circled in green). The smaller jins are sort of out of place (circled in red). In nature little thin branches of dead wood would probably just break off. The one on the top is too long so it probably needs to be reduced to a nub. The other issue is your new main trunk (circled in blue) is pretty straight and boring, and also about the same size as the lower part of your trunk. You're always looking for taper and interesting movement so if you keep this tree long term you'll always struggle with that.

View attachment 554303

All that being said, it's a good learning experience and it sounds like you're going to be joining a club. That's the absolute best thing you can do and in a year you'll look back and laugh about this tree.

Wow - thanks a ton for writing this up. Tons of great info/perspective for me to think on. (and I definitely plan to shorten that bulky jin - if the tree survives )

I laughed at your closing line - before posting this, I already knew that I would one day look back at this thread and cringe at my lack of knowledge/butchering of this tree. I still look at some of my old posts from skiing/climbing/biking forums and just think "I didn't know anything, I looked like such an idiot". But I'd rather that than being too afraid to learn from my mistakes!