Wanted to trade: Two nice little Maples............

[Don Blackmond]

Let me clarify. The comment about not feeling good about it has to do with the fact that I read through the whole thread which, for the most part, was an utter waste of time. Time is precious and I'll never get that time back. It is also very disappointing to see these childish arguments again and again and again. Bonsai is a hobby. Its supposed to bring enjoyment and relieve stress and pressures from the demands of life. It should not be about arguing and fighting, namecalling and belittling fellow enthusiasts. All the bickering and posturing is sickening to me. I don't know how any one of you can read this crap and feel any other way than embarrassed and disappointed. Sure, there are some decent posts sprinkled in here and there, but for the most part its just flat out negative and demeaning and an overall crappy representation of bonsai as a hobby. Its a huge turn off.

The comment on price seems pretty self-explanatory. There a many factors to price and, oftentimes people don't know enough to understand pricing. My suggestion is that if you don't understand a price then ask. Stuff is priced for a reason, and its not simply to get rich. I'll let you in on a secret - there's no money in bonsai. Bonsai nurseries come and go. Few survive. Guess why?

 

[abqjoe]

Personally I'd like to see this entire thread deleted! It serves no purpose and will quickly lead to a huge black eye for the community in general.

 

[sorce]

C'mon it's just family!

Sorce

 

[abqjoe]

C'mon it's just family!

Sorce

You know, I saw a recent thread welcoming and recognizing the new members from Japan and I wonder what they think of this pile!? This thread is better off being deleted and I think at this point in this forums life maybe @Bonsai Nut should consider finding a couple of senior members here who would like to be moderators. Threads like this remind me of something that you would see on an MMA forum, not a Bonsai forum, and that's pretty disgusting really! I don't know how many people have messaged me saying how it's threads with behavior like this that's actually the reason they don't participate on this forum anymore. From no names who have been treated just like this who only lurk now to some pretty damn big names in Bonsai! Just something to think about...................................

 

[coh]

You're spitting into the wind, Joe. This thread won't be deleted, and there will be no moderators. This forum is what it is. Maybe someone should start a new forum that is more heavily moderated/controlled and without a lot of the extraneous bs! Oh, wait, that forum exists... http://bonsaistudygroup.com/index.php check it out. Some good information buried in older threads but I can't recall the last time someone actually posted something there.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

should consider finding a couple of senior members here who would like to be moderators

This has been brought up 762 times, it's just not gonna happen. It's a shame, but it's the way the head nut wants things run. Nothing is moderated or deleted, ever.

 

[Dav4]

You're spitting into the wind, Joe. This thread won't be deleted, and there will be no moderators. This forum is what it is. Maybe someone should start a new forum that is more heavily moderated/controlled and without a lot of the extraneous bs! Oh, wait, that forum exists... http://bonsaistudygroup.com/index.php check it out. Some good information buried in older threads but I can't recall the last time someone actually posted something there.

Yup. Been over to the IBC lately? .... crickets .... With all it's foibles, I still prefer this forum to any other one, including those on FB, and I'm actually glad it's run the way it is. Stick around long enough and you'll figure out how not to get stuck in the mud and without the help of moderators.

 

[Adair M]

This has been brought up 762 times, it's just not gonna happen. It's a shame, but it's the way the head nut wants things run. Nothing is moderated or deleted, ever.

You counted? Geez...

 

[coh]

Yup. Been over to the IBC lately? .... crickets .... With all it's foibles, I still prefer this forum to any other one, including those on FB, and I'm actually glad it's run the way it is. Stick around long enough and you'll figure out how not to get stuck in the mud and without the help of moderators.

Yeah, I've been better about that but still occasionally fall into the quicksand When I find that happening, I'll usually take a break and try to come back refreshed.

I was going to mention IBC, that place maintains a low level of activity but BSG is completely DOA.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You know, I saw a recent thread welcoming and recognizing the new members from Japan and I wonder what they think of this pile!? This thread is better off being deleted and I think at this point in this forums life maybe @Bonsai Nut should consider finding a couple of senior members here who would like to be moderators.

I rarely moderate threads. When I do things have to be totally out of control. Generally when they get so bad that I start moderating threads, I start looking for people to ban.

It takes two people to have an argument. Let's be adults here and be honest - you posted how many times in this thread arguing with people... and then you want the thread deleted because people are arguing? It all started when people pointed out fungus issues with one of your trees. I almost pointed it out myself. No one is trying to score ego points by saying your trees have fungus. Guess what? Some of my trees get fungus. Some of my trees get bugs. Some of my trees suffer from bad water. It's part of the hobby. And the more people point things out to you, and the more you get defensive, the more people are going to pile on. It's the nature of the Internet and I don't know a single forum, anywhere, on any subject, where it doesn't happen.

A little bit of humility goes a long way. And if someone posts something you don't like, it doesn't have to turn into a WWIII attack on your personality. Maybe you agree? Maybe you don't? But be careful when you tell someone "you're wrong" if you aren't 100% certain about your knowledge and theirs. You've got people right now on this forum saying things like "I've been a nursery owner for over 20 years and I still learn something new every day". Think about it.

And I will freely add.... none of my trees are perfect. All could be better. And all would benefit from having insight and suggestions from members of the community. I belong to a study group and we go to each others' homes and talk about trees. We offer each other some pretty critical commentary. But we do so in a spirit of mutual respect - not because we are trying to score points by tearing each other down.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

And by the way my position on moderation, in general, is that excessive moderation kills more sites than it saves. People become so worried about being moderated, warned, or banned, that the site becomes a vanilla wasteland of people who only post if they agree with something. If we all agree, what is the point of having a forum? We already know what we are going to say! So if you post here, you need to be prepared for the fact that at least someone is going to have a different opinion, particularly because, as an art form, a lot of bonsai is subjective.

People either need to be able to act like adults and self-moderate, or they are not welcome on the site. I am not going to babysit opinions or content. And my tolerance level for free speech and free opinions is pretty high. Not unlimited, but pretty high. I think we have gotten to a weird place in society where everyone wants to have free speech - but they don't want the other person to have free speech. And the second they hear an opinion they don't agree with they become offended (at best) or violent (at worst). You don't have a right to not be offended. So no, I'm not going to delete the thread I actually feel there are some valid thoughts and opinions in it.

 

[abqjoe]

And by the way my position on moderation, in general, is that excessive moderation kills more sites than it saves. People become so worried about being moderated, warned, or banned, that the site becomes a vanilla wasteland of people who only post if they agree with something. If we all agree, what is the point of having a forum? We already know what we are going to say! So if you post here, you need to be prepared for the fact that at least someone is going to have a different opinion, particularly because, as an art form, a lot of bonsai is subjective.

People either need to be able to act like adults and self-moderate, or they are not welcome on the site. I am not going to babysit opinions or content. And my tolerance level for free speech and free opinions is pretty high. Not unlimited, but pretty high. I think we have gotten to a weird place in society where everyone wants to have free speech - but they don't want the other person to have free speech. And the second they hear an opinion they don't agree with they become offended (at best) or violent (at worst). You don't have a right to not be offended. So no, I'm not going to delete the thread I actually feel there are some valid thoughts and opinions in it.

Well, it's your forum so it's your choice ultimately, all I'm saying is that a LITTLE bit of moderation goes a long way! I am also a member on the JerzeeDevil Forums which is a knife forum. Similar situation in the sense that when I first went on there was a little gang of hotheads that use to love to attack newbee's on the forums and cause a lot of problems. They always wanted to exploit them and turn every thread anyone new wanted to make into a battlefield. This turned off a lot of people to the forum including big name makers, big name collectors, and big name manufacturers. The owner of said forum finally had enough and decided to do some light moderation which worked out well and had a positive affect of that forum that you wouldn't believe! Fast forward to today, that forum now has many more manufactures participating with consumers/enthusiasts, a lot more custom makers participating, a high amount of newbee's participating and actually staying on instead of leaving, and the conversations are way more articulate and productive now. I've seen this stuff happen on forums for a very long time now and I do think that a little bit (not martial law) of moderation goes a long way!

BTW, as far as my attitude goes, well, if you go back to the first page of this thread right after Smoke said that I might want to treat with fungicide I said "There's no fungus on my tree's". Then, just two posts later I clearly stated that I had treated just in case, that doesn't exactly describe someone who is shunning someone else's advice! My level of intensity in this thread was mostly due to the improper etiquette bestowed on me by others in the way that they just continuously wanted to insult me and my tree's lol and the kicker is, that 90% of the people in this thread have absolutely no business commenting in it in the first place because they have nothing to offer as far as the threads purpose goes. Maybe instead of moderation you could just come up with a few rules that people have to follow. For instance, here in the For Sale section I really don't feel that it's right for anyone to go into someone's for sale thread and start criticizing the seller's price! Should go without saying but I've seen it happen in here several times! A Stay On Topic rule would be nice too In real life people don't act right and that's why there are clearly written laws that people are expected to follow, that's all I'm saying.... But again, your forum your choice! As for me, whether changes are made or not I'll still be around, this is not my first rodeo on an internet forum nor will it be my last But, I'm hoping for a few changes that would ultimately lead to this place going in a more positive direction!

BTW, one of the things that the owner of JerzeeDevil Forums did was create a subforum dedicated to heated threads like this so instead of shutting them down or banning people he would just move the entire thread to that subforum so that people could decide whether or not they wanted to see it.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Well, it's your forum so it's your choice ultimately, all I'm saying is that a LITTLE bit of moderation goes a long way!

How about this? How about you moderate YOUR activity. Then there wouldn't be a problem, would there?

Everyone is always so quick to point out that it is the other person's fault. If everyone managed their own behavior, there wouldn't be a problem. Therefore when I find people who CAN'T manage their own behavior, I remove them from the forum. Problem solved.

Be the change you want to see in the world. I am trying very kindly to make you understand - YOU created this thread - YOU created the hostile environment - YOU created 14 pages of arguments. I don't see how it is MY responsible to clean up YOUR mess. You asked what a new Japanese visitor would think about coming to this site and seeing this content? Don't you see that you are really asking - what would a Japanese visitor think of ME and MY behavior?

The worst thing I could do for this site is create that expectation that people are allowed to come here and piss all over the place, and I will be there to clean it up. I have had plenty of private conversations with people about behavior on the site. Some change their behavior, some are no longer members of the site. But for the most part, people are allowed a lot of leeway. If you don't care for the leeway, there are other (dead) heavily moderated bonsai forums out there to view, or you could just read books and watch videos where the communication is completely one-sided.

 

[abqjoe]

How about this? How about you moderate YOUR activity. Then there wouldn't be a problem, would there?

Everyone is always so quick to point out that it is the other person's fault. If everyone managed their own behavior, there wouldn't be a problem. Therefore when I find people who CAN'T manage their own behavior, I remove them from the forum. Problem solved.

Be the change you want to see in the world. I am trying very kindly to make you understand - YOU created this thread - YOU created the hostile environment - YOU created 14 pages of arguments. I don't see how it is MY responsible to clean up YOUR mess. You asked what a new Japanese visitor would think about coming to this site and seeing this content? Don't you see that you are really asking - what would a Japanese visitor think of ME and MY behavior?

The worst thing I could do for this site is create that expectation that people are allowed to come here and piss all over the place, and I will be there to clean it up.

Actually my posts in this thread are outnumbered by at least 5 to 1 and make up probably less than 10% of the thread as a whole Obviously this conversation is going nowhere and falling on deaf ears so instead of continuing it I'll just bid you good day.....

 

[abqjoe]

EDIT: @Bonsai Nut I have 57 posts in this thread and with a total of 273 posts that's approximately 21% of this threads posts. If you were to subtract from that number the posts of mine that are non confrontational the 57 would probably go down to 40 or so dropping the 21% into the teens percentage wise making my contribution to the problem in this thread around 18%. Yup, I'm definitely the problem lmao

 

[Redwood Ryan]

EDIT: @Bonsai Nut I have 57 posts in this thread and with a total of 273 posts that's approximately 21% of this threads posts. If you were to subtract from that number the posts of mine that are non confrontational the 57 would probably go down to 40 or so dropping the 21% into the teens percentage wise making my contribution to the problem in this thread around 18%. Yup, I'm definitely the problem lmao

Let's relax with the passive aggressiveness. You're talking to the head Nut.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You can lead a horse to water...

Sorry Al.

 

[thams]

I would just add that it pays in life to maintain positive attitudes in whatever you do - especially in every day interactions. People have no idea what doors are closed to them because of their attitudes. There's a way to be direct without being combative. I really respect people that are direct, but courteous. Some people tend to make things personal when they're not, and others make things personal when they don't have to be.

The bonsai community is so small that it makes no sense to alienate yourself over petty internet squabbles. It's totally alright (and even encouraged) to disagree with others. But I'd venture to say that most of these arguments would be resolved in 5 minutes over PM. If you're not willing to disagree and try resolving the conflict over PM, then you're just looking to make a scene. It makes me wonder if the same people would be willing to make a "scene" in real life with an equivalent audience as the forum views. If the answer is yes, then I wish you well in life. You'll probably need it.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Moderators can destroy a forum with favoritism and a bullying system. Been there done that. Seen a show breeder not only give up showing and breeding but seeking counseling and an attorney for those moderators felt they were above the law and took it off the forums and went to dog shows...why? Because a backyard breeder needed help saving a litter of puppies. In good conscious she couldn't see letting those pups die. And offered advice. So she was viciously attacked from all angles. Moderators are human too...and,what if...the moderator doesn't see eye to eye with the one complaining? Then what? Again...babysitting. Self moderating ones self is the best direction one can do.

@Bonsai Nut / Greg you are doing a fine job. It's ones who don't see fault in themselves that have the issue. They don't feel they need to self moderate. Don't see that their actions causes the dominoes to fall so to speak.

Am I perfect...far from it. I was taught respect...and to give it. When I see it not done it irks me maybe more than it should. I don't care what the one offers as advice. One should be appreciative even if one disagrees. One doesn't have to heed all the advice given...but can still be grateful one took the time to offer it.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Well it would be hypocritical of me to say I support free speech and contrary opinions, and not let people criticize me

However the door swings both ways. It is just as easy for a beginner to become disenchanted with the site as a veteran. When you have someone like @Smoke who has god only knows how many years of experience (30+) in the industry, and a prior officer of the largest bonsai organization in the country, offering advice on one of your trees, and you just shut him down without the slightest consideration... how likely is it that he will offer advice to someone in the future? Why bother?

There is a long list of professionals who are members of this site who rarely comment any more. They come to the site, read the threads, but don't offer advice any more. I assume for this very reason. Why would they? Their time is worth thousands of dollars! @Walter Pall works on trees that are worth what some people make in a year. Why would he want to comment on someone's tree if his advice is just going to be treated with disrespect? Instead he'll go and be the headliner at someone's bonsai convention where he'll have hundreds of people lining up to hear his opinion. I don't think people fully appreciate some of the talent and experience they have access to on this site.